[Blolover11]

Hello everyone. (note to moderators: I am also specifically interested in receiving a Theravadin response to this post. Apologies for also posting this topic in "General Buddhism" as well. If this is a problem, please delete this post or the other post.)

I'm originally from the US but have lived in Thailand for quite a few years, and it seems that "face" and "shame" play a big role in Thai culture. I'm not sure if this is due to the Buddhist virtue of lajja (shame), or if it's due to some type of over-riding collectivist cultural value - or perhaps a combo of both (this could be seen as a 'chicken and the egg' thing; I'm currently studying for a degree in Anthropology so I apologize for all these "cultural" topics floating around in my head!).

Shame in the West is usually seen as a negative trait, although lajja/shame is a (positive) virtue in Buddhism.

From the Journal of Buddhist Ethics:
"Fear and shame are regarded as virtues in Buddhist ethical discourse when, for instance, one fears the karmic consequences of misdeeds or feels shame at having violated monastic vows." - http://www.buddhistethics.org/9/mrozik.html#n16

My question is, what role do you feel lajja/shame plays in Buddhism? And, do you believe shame plays a larger role in certain types of Buddhism? Do you feel this is an important trait included, or not included, in "Western Buddhism" (whatever "Western Buddhism" may be)?

Just from my own observations from visiting Theravada temples in Thailand, and then visiting a couple Buddhist organizations in the West, it seems that there is a strong level of "formalism" with visiting temples in Thailand, which I think is not just associated with temples, but an overall respect of "hierarchy" and "face" within Thai culture, something which I believe also preserves the tradition, at least to an extent .... I'm not sure exactly where Im going with this, but just something that's been floating around my head.

Thanks very much for your time and look forward to seeing your views.

[verybigf]

Hi James and welcome to the group!

We don't usually double up on topics but can maybe leave this one in both places for now. - Here we can focus on just a response from Theravadins - and other people can post about it in the General thread. Normally though, one would just choose one forum which one feels is best suited for the topic. The General Buddhist discussions forum is for a range of replies from everyone whatever their tradition or interest.

Kind regards,

Aloka-D

Note

Posts which are not from Theravadin practitioners in this particular topic here in the Theravada Forum will be moved to the other one in the General forum.

[ayWCZ7VT]

Hoping to get some comments from our Theravada practitioners on this - I've got no idea about it myself in relation to Theravada practice.

[pE71J5Sw]

Shame is mentioned in MN 53 - Sekha Sutta :

excerpt:


"And how is the disciple of the noble ones endowed with seven qualities?

"(1) There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in clear-knowing & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.'

"(2) He feels shame at [the thought of engaging in] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct.

"(3) He feels concern for [the suffering that results from] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct.

"(4) He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that — in their meaning & expression — proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, and well-penetrated in terms of his views.

"(5) He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities.

"(6) He is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago.

"(7) He is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress.

"This is how the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with seven qualities URL

[_tppga_]

Apparently in Theravada shame is known as "hiri" and the Buddha said that hiri was one of the five gates of entry into dhamma.


More about shame here:


AN 2.6 Lokapala Sutta

"Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons." URL

[bMc8F9ZI]

To continue to get a Theravada understanding of shame (hiri), here's a quote from the late Bhikkhu Buddhadasa :


"If we are empty of egoism there is no consciousness of "I" and "mine". We have the truth -discerning awareness that can extinguish Dukkha and is the cure for the spiritual disease; At that moment the disease cannot be born, and the disease that has already arisen will disappear as if picked up and, thrown away. At that moment, the mind will be completely filled with Dhamma. This accords with the remark that emptiness is truth-discerning awareness, emptiness is the Dhamma, emptiness is the Buddha, because in that moment of being empty of 'I' and "mine" there will be present every desirable virtue in the whole Tripitaka.

To put it simply, there will be perfect satisampajanna (mindfulness and self - awareness); perfect hiri (sense of shame); perfect ottappa (fear of evil); perfect khanti (patience and endurance); and perfect soracca (gentleness). There will be perfect katannukatavedi (gratitude) and perfect honesty right up to yathabhutananadassana (the knowledge and vision according to reality) that is the cause for the attainment of Nibbana.

I've come down to basics, saying that there must be satisampajanna, hiri, ottappa, khanti, soracca and katannukata*vedi because these things are also Dhamma, they too can be a refuge for the world. Even hiri and otappa alone, the aversion and shame towards doing evil and the fear of doing evil, with just these the world would be tranquil with lasting peace.

Nowadays there seems to be nothing but callous people who have no sense of fear or shame with regard to doing evil, and being that way they are able to do unfitting things and insist on doing them continually. Even when they see that it will create disaster for the whole world, they still persist, and so the world undergoes destruction because it lacks even this small virtue.

Or, we may take an even humbler virtue, that of gratitude. With just this one virtue, the world could be at peace. We must recognize that every person in the world is the benefactor of everyone else. Never mind people; even cats and dogs are benefactors of humanity, even sparrows. If we are aware of our debt of gratitude to these things, we will be unable to act in any way that harms or oppresses them. With the power of this one virtue of gratitude, we can help the world. "

URL

[LasTins]

Thanks very much Daz

[Shark&Nike]

from post #7

Hi James

In Theravada, this teaching is very important.

If you wish to do some research on the subject, search for the words "hiri ottappa" on the internet.

The Buddha advised hiri and ottoppa were two of the "five gates" for entry into dhamma, the other three being mindfulness (sati), clear comprehension (sampajanna) and concentration (samadhi).

The two words are generally used as the compound "hiri ottappa".

Hiri is sense of shame, ottappa is fear of [the results of doing] evil.

A more positive modern rendering is 'conscience & concern'.

Kind regards

Element

[Squeernemergo]

Hi James

In Theravada, this teaching is very important.

If you wish to do some research on the subject, search for the words "hiri ottappa" on the internet.

The Buddha advised hiri and ottoppa were two of the "five gates" for entry into dhamma, the other three being mindfulness (sati), clear comprehension (sampajanna) and concentration (samadhi).

The two words are generally used as the compound "hiri ottappa".

Hiri is sense of shame, ottappa is fear of [the results of doing] evil.

A more positive modern rendering is 'conscience & concern'.

Kind regards

Element

Thank you very much Element

"Conscience & concern" does sound more pleasant ...

[Percocetti]

This article "Hiri Ottappa" by Ajahn Jayasaro of the Thai Forest Tradition is worth reading.

URL

[Rabbahpuptiopp]

Thanks a lot Daz

[Kdgjhytiy]

Daz, for some reason my university is blocking that page (no idea why), is it possible you can post it here?

[Sertvfdnhgjk]

OK ...its quite long. Here we go.



Hiri Ottappa

by Ajahn Jayasaro


"As Buddhists, when we talk about spiritual life, we talk in terms of training, a comprehensive, thorough-going training of all aspects of our life. That training requires us to identify and see the various aspects of what makes up our life, the body and the mind; seeing that which is conducive to true happiness and peace, harmony with others and the world, and that which leads to pain and distress, both for ourselves and others. It involves seeking to abandon that which should be abandoned, and developing that which should be developed. In talking of this training we generally divide it into three steps or groups, those of Sila, Samadhi, and Panna.


Sila is the training of our body, our actions and our speech. Samadhi is the calming, the pacifying, of the mind's agitation and distraction, making the mind form and serene. Panna is the training in investigation, reflection, learning to incline the firm and serene mind toward the true nature of our being, our own reality, the reality of the world around us.. Although Sila, the training of the body and speech, is considered the foundation for the training of the mind, it also requires the development of Wisdom. We must come to understand the value of that training, the value of restraint, and the unfortunate consequences of neglecting such a training.Wisdom is in fact what we might call the defining characteristic of the Buddha's Teaching in that whatever the sphere of activity, and whatever the level of practice, wisdom is always considered to be that vital component, that governing factor.

[gennickhif]

"Whenever Wisdom is lacking, there is ignorance, and in the darkness of ignorance it's very easy for the various kinds of craving, views and conceits to overwhelm the mind.
Meditation is usually considered, rather narrowly, to be the application of certain techniques to still or to investigate the mind. Consequently, there is a lack of understanding of the Path in it's wholeness and in the integrity of the Eightfold Path, or, as we have summarized, it's threefold training for body, speech and mind;- Sila, Samadhi, and Panna.In particular there is often a lack of awareness of the relationship between the external practice of restraint and the renunciation of that which is unwholesome, and the inner practice of concentration and reflection.

In the West, those spiritual groups attaching little importance in the religious life to the practice of Sila( attention to our actions and speech,) are often more popular than those which emphasise it's role because we all have a natural tendency to want our cake and eat it. To begin with, keeping the precepts entails going against the stream, going against the old habits, and actually doing things which are difficult to do, which we don't really like to do, and which thereby lead to tension and stress. But that stress is mitigated and feels much less pressing and significant when we have a real understanding of the way the mind works. We see that the only way to free the mind of it's addictions is to get out of the habitually negative and self-orientated ways of acting and relating to the world.


Initially, how we act and speak, reflect the conditioning imposed by the state of the world we live in, be it the harmony, peace, confusion, or violence. Taking on the Precepts as training rules or standards of morality, means that one recollects and returns to these as the basis for one's judgements and therefore, behaviour. They cleanse the mind and protect it from guilt, anxiety, fear and suspicion.

[Aniplinipsync]

"When we practice awareness and avoid saying or doing things likely to hurt ourselves and others, including the environment, we notice the arising of self respect, of self-confidence and a calmness in the mind. When there is a common allegiance to the precepts of non-harming, to refraining from sexual misconduct, stealing, or lying and taking intoxicants, then a community or society is one in which the highest potential or the fragile flowers of virtue of the mind, can flourish.

It creates an atmosphere which is conducive to the Realisation of Truth, and therefore, a noble and beautiful Way of Life.


Now in talking about Sila, talking about the Precepts and the intentions that we have, there are certain emotional forces or powers of the mind which help us to develop and maintain that purity. These are called in the Pali language, Hiri and Ottappa.

They have been translated in various ways. Hiri is often rendered as a sense of shame or conscience; Ottappa, as moral dread or a fear of evil. When seen in translation, the terms seem rather forbidding, and we don't feel inspired by them, as we do when we see, say, the seven Factors of Enlightenment, Mindfulness, the Investigation of the of Dhamma, or Rapture etc. These are things which we aspire to very readily, but the humble Dhammas of Hiri and Ottappa don't have the same appeal. We tend to confuse them with guilt, repression, and neurotic reactions, even drawing upon our earlier experiences in life to explain them.

[mudozvonf]

"The Buddha Himself however, gave great importance to them. He praised them very highly by calling them the protectors of the world, the things which uphold and protect human beings and society from disintergration, chaos or anarchy. So long as we are unenlightened, we retain our selfish desires. We are not able to let them go, but although we cling to them tenaciously, we can at least make the resolution based upon reflection and understanding, that at least we will not inflict our imperfections upon others. We will not act, or speak in ways which are fuelled by the defilements. We won't allow ourselves to cause pain, or distress to others, society or the natural world. Now there are times when we wish we hadn't made those resolutions, when the desire is very strong and the mind, agitated. In that state of unrest, what tends to arise is a sort of over-ride mechanism. There is a whisper in the mind, a kindly whisper;- "This isn't a good thing to do, this isn't right," and then the over-ride mechanism is something like, "Shut up, I'm busy now." or "It doesn't matter, don't make a fuss, just don't think about it." Some way of negating, putting down, disregarding what we call the prick of conscience arises, and it is here that we can break our precepts, afterwards feeling remorse- even self-aversion at considering ourselves to be so bad and so on. So the reason that the Buddha gave such a central importance to Hiri and Ottappa is because they are that voice that says.." it's not proper, it's not right", the voice that says "if you do this then that will happen and that's going to be very unpleasant for ourselves and for others"...

Hiri and Ottappa are sankharas. They are conditioned phenomena, which means that they can be developed or they can be neglected and ignored, but the more we strengthen our reflection upon them through understanding and constant repetition, the greater is our resistance to craving. This is victory over oneself. The Buddha said victory over ten thousand enemies is not as great as a victory over oneself, which means the victory of wholesome over unwholesome Dhammas. So Hiri and Ottappa, when we have developed them well can stand forth and counter the stream of craving; save us from doing, saying, or even indulging mentally in that which is harmful to us.


Hiri, that sense of shame or conscience is really a shrinking away from that which is inappropriate, the corollary of which is, that we should always consider the significance and appropriateness of our actions. We might consider that on a number of different levels such as what is appropriate on a wider scale, what is appropriate for us as human beings, what's appropriate in our relationships with others? What sort of principles are proper and correct, noble principles? How should we act towards the natural world,- the environment? We might look at the appropriateness of personal relationships towards mother, father, sister, brother, spouse, workmates and so on. We really need to consider what principles should underlie our conduct towards all these people, and as Buddhists, what is appropriate behaviour, speech, and thought?

[aLZ9zKsO]

"The more we reflect upon these aspects of our behaviour, discriminating between the appropriate and the inappropriate, the more we train our mind, which then becomes more refined, sensitive, confidant and protected.


Ottappa is a reflection on Karma; that willingness and preparedness to stand back and think it through. We consider the whole process from the initial action ( with the ramifications both for ourselves and others) to the final results. The clearer our understanding, the stronger our reasoned faith in Kamma. There develops a wise fear, an intelligent fear based upon the painful consequences of our unskillful activities. These guiding forces or influences are not blind emotions although there is an emotional force there grounded in Wisdom and Understanding, an understanding of what is appropriate and what will result from our actions. Of course when the mind is intoxicated, full of negativity or craving, these are the very things we don't wish to think about because it just takes away so much of the excitement and enjoyment when we stop to consider "Is this really appropriate; What will be the consequences upon ourselves and other people?"


In the Abhidhamma, it states that every unwholesome mind state is accompanied by recklessness and shamelessness- the very opposites of Hiri and Ottappa. When Hiri and Ottappa are strong and resolute we have the brake of self-discipline which allows us to refrain from any pleasure of the immediate moment through realising it will lead ultimately to an increase in attachment, to fear, paranoia, anxiety, worry, sorrow and despair. When Hiri and Ottappa are present, then we can easily keep the Precepts as the basis for the spiritual life not only through their intellectual acceptance, but by the additional emotional support, as a friend and a strong force for protection.


I'd like to encourage all of you to give some thought to the nature of Hiri and Ottappa, and to give attention to their qualities which we all have in our minds to varying degrees. Let us aim to strengthen them so that our Sila becomes pure and unstained, unsoiled by the power of craving, opinions, conceit and all the rest of the defilements. With that kind of effort, Sila can provide a firm, enduring foundation for the calming of the mind and the realisation of Truth which in turn, provides the impetus for the mind to break free from all that binds and restricts it. "


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[boltondd]

The previous posts #13 to #17 are the Ajahn Jayasaro article as requested #12

[Qahtwugc]

"When we practice awareness and avoid saying or doing things likely to hurt ourselves and others, including the environment, we notice the arising of self respect, of self-confidence and a calmness in the mind. When there is a common allegiance to the precepts of non-harming, to refraining from sexual misconduct, stealing, or lying and taking intoxicants, then a community or society is one in which the highest potential or the fragile flowers of virtue of the mind, can flourish.

It creates an atmosphere which is conducive to the Realisation of Truth, and therefore, a noble and beautiful Way of Life.

Just wonderfull Aloka dear... this is the quitessential expresion of what buddhism is about...

And the rest of the posts (#13 thorugh #17) are just great!

[ENGINESSQ]

from post #10

This guys of the Thai Forest Tradition (Theravada?) are realy outstanding!