[Woziwfaq]

One of my favorites, as it demonstrates 'emptiness in action' so to speak.

Buddha explains one aspect of emptiness which is 100% experiential (no metaphysics here).

face-to-face with the Blessed One — I heard this, face-to-face I learned this: 'I now remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness.' Did I hear that correctly, learn it correctly, attend to it correctly, remember it correctly?" He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....121.than.html

The Buddha then commences to outline a path of release.

Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure. Very beautiful and sublime IMHO. So, have a read and let me know what you think.

Namaste

[Onervemurce]

I like this sutta a lot too. I prefer Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation 'emptiness' to my own Bhikkhu Bodhi version. 'voidness' .

I'm not sure if I understand what the dimension of infinitude of consciousness is though, or the dimension of nothingness .

On a personal level I find that if one practices tranquility meditation (best outdoors for me) relaxing with the breath, thoughts settle, and the mind becomes peaceful and clear, expansive and empty. One can then retain this state with steadiness. With later analysis one has a basic understanding of 'emptiness' and concludes that there is an absence of I, me, mine, clinging etc. This is also useful when practicing mindfulness during everyday activities, because one can then naturally calm the mental chatter and emotions which arise.

Back to the sutta again. Having looked at the Bhikkhu Bodhi version again, with regards to what I was saying above about "the dimension of infinitude of consciousness" and "the dimension of nothingness", the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation says "the base of infinite consciousness " and " the base of nothingness." Still not sure what they mean on an experiential level though.

[#[SoftAzerZx]]

Still not sure what they mean on an experiential level though.

Hi Aloka-D,
The arupa jhanas as far as I can tell. "The Perception of Earth" seems to cover the form jhanas, the rest seem to be formless absorptions, although they are presented differently.

The nine levels of jhana are:
1. Delightful Sensations
2. Joy
3. Contentment
4. Utter peacefulness
5. Infinity of space
6. Infinity of consciousness
7. No-thingness
8. Neither perception nor non-perception
9. Cessation
(from Anguttara Nikaya 9.36) http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Jhanas

In this sutta we have a "Theme-Less Concentration" inserted between "Neither Perception nor Non-Perception" and "Release".

Experientially, they describe what appears to the mind within each stage.

[Pipindula]

Oh I see ! ...Idon't really know much about the Jhanas.

My level is that of Braingoneness

[Herimoisige]

Two things:

Oh I see ! ...Idon't really know much about the Jhanas.

*gasp*! They are pretty much all over the Pali Canon in a standard template description, but you can get a good sense of it from Ajahn Brahm's discussion of it here.

I hadn't yet seen this smilie on this board, and as soon as I do... the server crashes. Coincidence?...

[lookanddiscover]

*gasp*!

Huh !

Well I've been a long term Vajrayana practitioner - and have only fairly recently been seriously interested in Theravada. There aren't Jhanas listed in that way in Mahayana. I'm not sure what the actual equivalent is because there are stages like the Bodhisattva levels. The first Bodhisattva level is equivalent to Stream Entry apparently.

In meditation there's what's called the Union of Samatha and Vipassana, there's Mahamudra and Dzogchen and there are various other kinds of practices which produce different experiences and results. For example I 've had the eqivalent to nimitta in Vajrayana practice and so on but its quite difficult to draw parallels.
...and yes I know the Jhanas are in the Pali Canon but I'm still not that familiar with them unfortunately. There's a lot of reading for me to do with all the suttas in the Pali Canon!

Thanks for the ]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/img/smilies/saucer.gif[/img]

[VotsUtegems]

There aren't Jhanas listed in that way in Mahayana. I'm not sure what the actual equivalent is because there are stages like the Bodhisattva levels. here & here
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/glossary.html#samadhi
dhyāna (禪). Meditation.
Meditation above the desire-realm level is generally classified into four levels, the four dhyānas (四禪) of the form realm.
In the first dhyāna, one's mind is undisturbed by the pleasures of the desire realm, but it has coarse and subtle perception.
In the second dhyāna, there is bliss in meditation.
In the third dhyāna, there is subtle joy after abandoning the bliss of the second dhyāna.
In the fourth dhyāna, one's mind is in pure meditation, free from any subtle feelings or movements.
Each level of dhyāna is also called the Root Samādhi, from which will grow virtues, such as the Four Immeasurable Minds and the eight liberations (see the four samādhis of the formless realm).

samādhi (定).
A state of mental absorption in meditation.
Above the level of the desire realm, there are eight levels of worldly samādhi (八定).
The first four levels are the four dhyānas (四禪) of the form realm.
The next four levels are the four samādhis of the formless realm (四空定): Boundless Space (空無邊), Boundless Consciousness (識無邊), Nothingness (無所有), and Neither Perception nor Non-perception (非想非非想).
A Buddhist or non-Buddhist who has attained any of the eight levels of meditation can be reborn in a corresponding heaven in the form or formless realm.
Only an Arhat can attain the ninth level called the Samādhi of Total Halt (滅盡定), also more appropriately called the Samādhi of Total Suspension of Sensory Reception and Perception (滅受想定).
To enter the Samādhi Door of Buddhas is to attain innumerable samādhis. See also: here

[romalama]

Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there.
Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.'
And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed.

"Ananda, whatever contemplatives and priests who in the past...future...present...entered & remained in an emptiness that was pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all entered & remained in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.

"Therefore, Ananda, you should train yourselves:
'We will enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.'" This must be the summary huh?

[ClapekDodki]

Thanks for the link plwk. I recall reading in some Tibetan book, a small passage which mentioned Jhana, but I can't remember which one. I think it was a Mahamudra tome.

In any case, I figured that some Mahayanists, at least, know about Jhana, even if it's not something they cultivate directly.

[PapsEdisa]

a Mahamudra tome.

I have a book of extensive information about different stages of meditation and the four yogas of Mahamudra called "Mahamudra - The Quintessence of Mind and Meditation" by Takpo Tashi Namgyal. However I've no idea if it mentions the Jhanas. Its a really thick book with small print and no index at the back for some inexplicable reason !

Anyway - back to the sutta - I wonder if anyone else has any comments about it ?

[intorkercet]

Well, funny you should mention that Aloka-D. The self-same lack of index in the self-same book bugged me last night, as I tried to check if that wasn't the book I'd read it in.

Yes, anyway, the sutta...

[neniajany]

but it does require leading a lifestyle to give rise to it as well as to sustain it

Ain't necessarily so Andy. It requires seclusion (ie. some time on your own in a quiet room) and correct instruction.

Being a monk, nun or having heaps of vows and radiating pure goodness may help a lot, but it's not essential. Anyone can do it and once gained, you don't suddenly lose it.

Sustaining samhadi is very pleasurable, it's not a chore in any way, so it's something you will go back to time and time again.

The sutta demonstrates how Buddha is doing this:
The Perception of Earth
"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of human being, not attending to the perception of wilderness — attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. Just as a bull's hide is stretched free from wrinkles with a hundred stakes, even so — without attending to all the ridges & hollows, the river ravines, the tracts of stumps & thorns, the craggy irregularities of this earth — he attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. Firstly, he's not attending to the perception of human being. This means, he's dropped self-identification. How has he done this? Easy, by attending to the singleness based on the perception of earth. In other words, he has placed his attention on form. Within the "form" jhanas, this is what you do.

In doing so, he is releasing the tension of "I" and absorbing into the sensory field of his body; sounds, physical feelings etc. outlined in the frames of reference. The process is very blissful and accompanies the breath - hence "His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth".

It's not a case of 'locking' the awareness tightly on an object, rather in relinquishing ownership of the process and in just noting what transpires. Stress and its release.

Namaste

[Tarrccrys]

Speaking about the experience of jhana is speaking about bliss (piiti), joy (sukha) and ecstasy (jhana).

What, in all of the jhanas? Does Jhana mean ecstasy ? What is the definition of that exactly? I always associate 'ecstasy' with erotic christian paintings and sculptures -the ecstasy of St Theresa and so on - there's a sculpture in Rome of a female saint with a small angel and an arrow depicting this,who looks as though she's having an orgasm.

I thought jhana just meant 'meditative absorption' and that there were different experiences related to each of them which distinguished one from another.

[L6RLnyfl]

wasn't meaning to suggest a monastic lifestyle was required

That's okay Andy. I just thought I'd mention it, as I've often read opinions which state it is. I always think that it will discourage people from even trying, or perhaps justify any perceived difficulties they encounter.

That's why I jump on that point.

[Qxsumehj]

from post #13

continuing from what I was saying in my previous post, can you explain what you mean by ecstacy in relation to your practice, please, Andy?

[oscilsoda]

from post #3

Not only you Sir,but many of the contributes to these pages...
look to make things more complicated?
It seems to me that many people use (abuse) these intellectual exercises to avoid practise.
Practise is not just sitting on the cushion,it's how one lives one's life.

[dushappeaps]

from post #21

Frank, I'm not at all clear about the meaning of your post I think we all know practice is how we lead our lives. as well as what happens on the cushion.
However perhaps you'd like to get this group discussion back on track for us now and comment on the sutta?

[Pznrrmaf]

My attempt was to emphasis that it is not a case of mental projection or creative thinking, nor are these states a case of concentration ... it seems to me that the Buddha defined the Eighth fold of the Noble Eightfold Path in terms of meditative absorption

Spot on Andy. I would agree with this.

Teresa of Avila - It pleased the Lord that I should sometimes see the following vision. I would see beside me, on my left hand, an angel in bodily form - a type of vision which I am not in the habit of seeing except very rarely . . . He was not tall but short, and very beautiful, his face so aflame that he appeared to be one of the highest types of angels who seem to be all afire ... In his hand I saw a long golden spear and at the end of the iron tip I seemed to see a point of fire. With this he seemed to pierce my heart ... he left me completely afire with a great love for God. The pain was so sharp that it made me utter several moans http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/ward.asp
I think Teresa of Avila's experience was the bliss of inner fire (kundalini) rather than Jhana, but that's just my opinion. Can't know for sure of course.

The bliss of Jhana is comparable but perhaps not as intense. Second Jhana equates to the state known by the Devas of Streaming Radiance. It is a very blissful abiding and an interesting step on the path.

Is a very rich sutta this one.

Namaste

[Allbrunette]

Getting back to the sutta itself, there's an audio and transcript of a talk on MN 121 by Bhante Vimalaramsi here (click at the top of the page for the MP3 of the transcript.)
URL

[HonjUopu]

from post #22

Really good listening just now to Bhante Vimalaramsi giving the talk . The sutta is a lot clearer to me now