[IssuessBratte]

What exactly does 'Stream Entry' mean in Theravada? Is it the term used for beginners on the path - or is it a recognised level of achievement ?

[swissloveone]

from post #1

First what is this "Stream" we read so much of?
Cannot do beter than quote accesstoinsight.org quoting in turn Buddha;
SN 55,5
"Very good, Sariputta! Very good! This noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the stream."

And again latter;
— SN 44.8

The coming-together of these factors is called the stream because it leads inevitably to two things, just as the current of a tributary will lead inevitably to a major river and then to the sea. In the immediate present, the stream leads directly to the arising of the Dhamma eye, the vision that actually constitutes this first awakening. Over time, the stream ensures that — in no more than seven lifetimes — one will be totally Unbound.

So it's definitely not beginner stuff,and yes it's indicates a level of attainment

[Vcwdldva]

from post #1

Is there an equivalent in Mahayana?

[wowwieholmes]

It's mean the stream to the end of sufferring or to be an arahunt.
The first one is Sotapanna which rebirth not more than 7 times. I copy from pali-english dictionary.


Sotapanna : a Stream-Enterer; Stream-Winner; one who has attained the
first stage of holiness
----------------------------------

Sotapanna : the 'Stream-winner', is the lowest of the 8 noble disciples (s. ariya-puggala). Three kinds are to be distinguished: the one 'with 7 rebirths at the utmost' sattakkhattu-parama : the one 'passing from one noble family to another' (kolaṅkola), the one 'germinating only once more' (eka-bījī). As it is said (e.g. Pug. 37-39; A. III, 87):

(1) "If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 fetters (personality-belief, skeptical doubt, attachment to rules and ritual; s. samyojana), has entered the stream (to Nibbāna), he is no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, is firmly established, destined to full enlightenment. After having passed amongst the heavenly and human beings only seven times more through the round of rebirths, he puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one with 7 births at the utmost' (sattakkhattu-parama).

(2) "If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 fetters.... is destined to full enlightenment, he, after having passed among noble families two or three times through the round of rebirths, puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one passing from one noble family to another' (kolaṅkola).

(3) "If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 fetters.... is destined to full enlightenment, he, after having only once more returned to human existence, puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one germinating only once more' (eka-bījī). See Sotāpatti-saṃyutta (S. LV).
-----------------------------

To understand the 3 fetters (samyojana) is useful for our meditation practice. Because this is the first step we will be met.
If we address to another step (the 4th and 5th fetter or more) may delay our practice.

[cmruloah]

Is there an equivalent in Mahayana?

There would have to be, as Mahayana accords to the Agamas the same authority as other Sutras, and this description is found in the Agamas. As to how this gets explained in specifically Mahayana sources, I do not know.

As an aside, may I suggest a quick glance here for a basic list of specific commonalities.

[fkisjjdhh]

Is there an equivalent in Mahayana?

I'm not sure yet, I thought it might be similar to the path of the Two Accumulations of merit and wisdom but I really don't know.

[attractiveweb]

Returning to the subject of Theravada stream entry - does anyone have anything else to say about it ?

[ElenaEvgeevna]

Returning to the subject of Theravada stream entry - does anyone have anything else to say about it ? Stream Entry: Part 1 & Part 2
Sotapanna
The Story of Kukkutamitta
Vera Sutta
DAKKHINAVIBHANGA SUTTA
Ananda, there are offerings made to fourteen kinds of individual beings. What are the fourteen?...
An offering made to one who is a Sotapanna is the ninth kind of offering made to an individual.
An offering made to one who is practising to attain Sotapatti Fruition (i.e. one who has attained Sotapatti Magga) is the tenth kind of offering made to an individual. Addendum: (A Forum discussion on an interesting case of a Sotapanna)
50th Anniversary of Nanavira's Sotapatti

Is there an equivalent in Mahayana? The late Ven Master Hsuan Hua of City of Ten Thousand Buddhas, CA in his lecture on the 'Diamond Cutter Perfection of Wisdom Sutra':
Link: http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/BTTStexts/ps.vajra.02.020503.scr een.pdf (Pages 77-79)

http://cttbusa.org/42s/42sections.asp
Section 11: The Increase in Merit Gained by Bestowing Food
The Buddha said...
Giving food to ten thousand people who hold the Five Precepts is not as good as giving food to a single Srotaapanna.
Giving food to a million Srotaapannas is not as good as giving food to a single Sakridagamin. (Note: Compare this with Velama Sutta )

http://www.sutrasmantras.info/glossary.html#rank
voice-hearer fruits...
A. The holy fruits achieved by voice-hearers on the Liberation Way are
(1) Srotāpanna, the Stream-Enterer who will attain Arhatship after at most seven times being reborn as a god and then a human;
B. These four holy fruits and the corresponding nearness to them are called the eight holy ranks (八聖).
Actually, one who is in the first rank, nearing the first holy fruit, is only a sage, and those in the higher seven ranks are holy beings.
Those who are still learning (śaikṣa, 有學) are in the first seven ranks. Only Arhats, in the eight rank, are those who have nothing more to learn (aśaikṣa, 無學). http://www.drba.org/dharma/btts/9xxe...tail.asp?wid=9
Four Stages of Arhatship
Strictly speaking the term Arhat refers to the fourth stage only, but is often used to refer to those of all four stages. (The term can also include Pratyekabuddhas and is also employed in its more general meaning as one of the Ten Titles of the Buddha.)

1) First Stage
"The Arhat of the first stage is called one who has 'entered the stream' (srota-apanna). He has entered the stream of the Dharma-nature of the sage, and he goes counter to the flow of the stream of the six senses of common people. He still has to undergo seven more rebirths among those in the heavens and among humans before he comes to the end of the Path." (DFS X 52)

The srota-apanna . . . has seven deaths and seven births remaining, and then will be certified as an Arhat. Severing love and desire is like severing the four limbs; one never uses them again. (S42 1)

[derty]

Thanks very much for the references plwk.


I've found a reference in Ringu Tulku's 'Path to Buddhahood ' - the commentary to Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation.

It says that in the 5 levels of the Bodhisattva path, (the 10 bhumis correspond to the 4th level of cultivation/meditation) that ....

"the third phase - insight (Path of Seeing) corresponds to the first bhumi of the Bodhisatta levels as as well as to the level of the "stream enterer" in the Theravada tradition.

So my guess that it was similar to the 'Two Accumulations' was wrong as that is the stage below the first Bodhisattva level.

OK, so 'Stream Enterer' is equivalent to 'First Bodhisattva Level'

[Sttim]

Could anyone who's a Theravadin tell me if people who have achieved stream entry are openly recognised within a community or not , please ?

[SawbasyWrab]

Could anyone who's a Theravadin tell me if people who have achieved stream entry are openly recognised within a community or not , please? In my past years with the Theravadin Community, it is a somewhat unspoken precedent that any form of attainment is usually discussed privately with one's teacher and not openly declared or recognised.
As far as I recall, the Monastics are discouraged & forbidden by the Vinaya to do such but not so for the Laity. See: Gihi Sutta
There is however one such self proclaimed case and recognised by his own followers but not in the wider Theravadin Community:
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhanananda.html

[phsyalcvqh]

from post #11

As plwk writes it is forbidden for a monastic to claim "Spiritual/super-natural powers.
It is generally thought to be virtually impossible for a lay-person to attain such.
It would be considered poor taste to brag about such matter.
Of course there will always be people who will flaunt conventions...
Maybe it's a case of "follow the money"
Of course maybe this is just my nasty nature coming to the fore.

[SarkisPioute]

from post #11

I'm would like to post my comment but I'm not sure am I understand "to be openly recognised within the community" meaning.

If mean telling the community that he is Sotapanna. He don't do that because he don't feel he success anything but he just found something that never met before (his mind touch nibbana) and make him understand dhamma and don't feel "I" in mind.

[RemiVedia]

from post #13

Hi Sukitlek,

I meant either the ordained sangha or the lay people declaring that someone they knew was a stream enterer.

It seems like its a general custom in all Buddhist traditions to not speak publicly about one's own attainments.

[WFSdZuP3]

Hey Aloka-D,

Back home, no one speaks of such things. It's more a feeling people would get, if a certain monk is generally considered a good teacher of the dhamma, then they might think to themselves, "oh this monk maybe at this level".

So we never hear of this sort of thing. I think the others have pointed out why this is like this.

[cokLoolioli]

from post #9

plwk, great links. Thank you.

[15Praxanant]

from post #16

Thanks Jack, and many thanks to everyone else for the replies and ]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/img/smilies/hands.gif[/img]

[Fhgzmftq]

from post #15

I found Sutta close to your question in Thai (Payakarana Sutta : may wrong sound) about AN 10.84 (about because Thai Tipitaka can not direct reference to) but I could not find English version.
I will continue try finding and will come back later.

[carinsurancess]

from post #19

Thank you Sukitlek

[zithromaxlinks]

From URL

---------------------------------------
4. Byàkaranasutta Declaring

84. Venerable Mahàmoggallàna addressed the bhikkhus:

ßHere, friends, a bhikkhu would declare: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, what should be done is done. I know, there is nothing more to wish.' Then the Thus Gone One or a disciple of the Thus Gone One, or someone clever in attaining the higher states of the mind, and clever in knowing the minds of others, the range of movement of the mental faculties of others questions, asks for reasons and studies together with him. Then he finds himself barren, crushed to bits and in misfortune.

The Thus Gone One or a disciple of the Thus Gone One, or someone clever in attaining the higher states of the mind, and clever in knowing the minds of others, the range of movement of the mental faculties of others reads his mind as to why the venerable one declared- Birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, what should be done is done. I know, there is nothing more to wish?.

The Thus Gone One or a disciple of the Thus Gone One or someone clever in attaining the higher states of the mind, and clever in knowing the minds of others, the range of movement of the mental faculties of others cognizing his mind knows:
---------------------------------------

Gone One : Thai tipitaka write Tathagata.

From this sutta show that someone that know other mind have ablility to know that another one is Stream enterer or Not.

But it is the own personal ability in his/her mind, can not show to another. Then, if he/she knew that this monk was stream enterer, he/she will not declare to everyone, just someone that he/she think he/she can.

There are no offences in Theravadin to declare another, but there is major offence if declare himself but he was not be. (If he was, not a major offence.)