[Drysnyaty]

First of all I'm new here, currently living in NZ, not Kiwi, but from Philippines. I've been a long time fan of WRC which started in computer games, watching seasons and now practicing in real life to get some skills and maybe join beginner comps.

Currently I'm using the 96 Toyota Starlet (ep91) NA. All Stock except for some engine mods (a true cold intake with ram and resonator) and 13" rims. Unbelievably durable car in offroading for a fwd so I'm thinking of getting another Toyota for more serious rallying like the classic Celica GT-four.

It's on M+S (all season mud and snow) passenger tyres at the moment (165/70/13 Westlake SP06 38/30 psi f/r). 5000 kms daily driving, few hundred kms of gravel rally practice with 60 kph average speed but is drifted a lot on corners and hit the banks hard a few times(can't believe it did not de-bead!). Still looks okay, plenty of thread left, no distortion, no bulges, and only minor scratches on the thread, almost none on the sidewalls! Most I practice at the moment is flicking, throttle oversteer/power understeer on relatively sharp corners so you don't need to be fast, minimal handbrake turns-as they seem to wear/damage the rear tyres the most.

I'm wondering if there are better tyres for slow practice runs, preferrably more durable and possibly more grippy except for true rally tyres (can't afford them and they don't last!). I've come upon Light Truck tyres on my research but are they legal to be fitted on a passenger car by NZ laws? Are there ones on 165/R13 or 145R13's still?? Are they significantly heavier that it badly affects unsprung mass to total mass ratio? Could I also fit dissimilar sizes, 165R13 front and 145R13 on rear to get more grip to the rear in gravel but I also wonder if it will cause issues in daily drive/laws? Thanks!

[Berta]

I may be wrong but I think you can run any tyre legally on the road as long as it's DOT rated and fits within the silhouette of the vehicle when viewed from above. So if you can find something designed as a light truck tyre that fits then I'm pretty sure you can use it. Maybe check the NZTA website for mor info?

Are you doing club events or just off for a sneaky practice? :-) If you intend to do club events keep in mind there can be some tyre restrictions. Eg, for a gravel/grass autocross I don't think you can use mud and snow's any longer. Normally the regs for each event should say. But they are a fun way of practicing the things you're talking about with the car you already have (ie, not a fully prepared rally car). And besides there will be lots of people there who know all about tyres and things.

In regards to weight, obviously the heavier the tyre the more it'll increase unsprung weight, but I wouldn't think you'd find anything that's 13" that'd weigh more than a gravel tyre, if rallying is ultimatly the direction you end up heading.

Finally there are a bunch of NZ motorsport forums where I think you'd find a lot more info on this particular topic. (not sure of the forum rules for posting links to other forums) but if you google it you should find a few. How that's of some help.

[Drysnyaty]

Thanks mate! yep, slow practice runs on farm roads. I find spots with no blind corners, pretty isolated, no ravines, no property to ruin so there will be no surprises. 40 kph slides, practicing flicks, trying to get comfy with oversteer, I was worried I'd burst the tyres or something. I thoroughly check the tyres and underside of car every after. I feel like getting more durable tyres than faster ones. Maybe summer LT tyres with thread pattern that looks okay on gravel? Problem really is it seems hard to find LT tyres on R13 like 165 or 155 R13.

I'm also practicing in Richard Burn Rally simulator. I've setup one of the cars, a fwd Fiat Punto to handle as close as possible to my Starlet. It is helping a lot in getting me up to speed without wasting gas and wearing out my tyres.

BTW, is a '92-95 Civic hatch okay beginner/very durable rally/practice car? What I like about the Civic is it has 4 wheel independent suspension. My Starlet has rigid beam on the rear and it tends to break loose easily on gravel. I love it on slow corners but it gets scary on fast ones and when braking! I'm thinking of putting a narrower steel wheel on the back like 145's get it sinking down the gravel more.

[Attaniuri]

First, M+S Westlake's will not be the best tyre to be using on gravel.
They are designed to grip mud and snow not loose gravel. Try finding some used rally tyres.
I must say tho, it might be in your best interests to join your local car club and enter some autocrosses. In these events you can get alot of help with what you are doing.
Anstis, you maybe aware that One of those forums are closing down soon too...

[Drysnyaty]

You got that right speedhog as I've experienced.

I'm definitely joining local clubs as I get my own place. It would seem like I need to buy a separate set of wheels to swap from daily to rally or even get another car but that definitely needs a bigger place.

[Berta]

Anstis, you maybe aware that One of those forums are closing down soon too...

Yes i'd forgotten about that, the end of october...

Farms are awesome to practice a bit of car control on I reckon. I certainly never worried about tyres too much back then, just jumped in a drove. Think it gives you a bit more confidence going into your early events, and probably made me go from hopeless to slightly less hopeless :-)

But if you're after 2nd hand gravel 13's there's often some pretty cheap on trademe if you keep an eye out. What part of the country are you in? I've got some Silverstone S505's that I doubt I'll use again, that will probably otherwise just end up on a silage stack. But not alot of use to you unless you're near Welly?

Can't really comment on the Civic sorry, but if rallying is where you want to end up it's normally always cheaper to buy one that someone else has built, than to build your own. But for an autocross generally anything goes as long as it passes scrutineering, you can even sneak off with your girlfriends/wifes/mums car for the day...

[Attaniuri]

Yes i'd forgotten about that, the end of october...

Damn shame I must admit, i remember taking photo's for Mike on his camera while he was in car's all day.

Can't really comment on the Civic sorry, but if rallying is where you want to end up it's normally always cheaper to buy one that someone else has built, than to build your own. But for an autocross generally anything goes as long as it passes scrutineering, you can even sneak off with your girlfriends/wifes/mums car for the day...

I remember when I was buying a car out of the trade and exchange two weeks before an autocross, spending one day stripping it out, thrashing the hell out of it, then ringing pick a part monday morning to get rid of it.

It would be much cheaper buying a built car to go rallying in.

[Drysnyaty]

Can't really comment on the Civic sorry, but if rallying is where you want to end up it's normally always cheaper to buy one that someone else has built, than to build your own.

Yea I was looking at 1300 NA built (USA though) with 130 hp, costs the same as a used 2002 Toyota Corolla!

I'd like to start with stock class. But I also wonder if they allow some mods. The mod I have in mind is a cold air intake or maybe as simple as just wrapping the intake components in insulating tape, and/or using insulating intake manifold gasket with throttle body coolant bypass.

My car had those mods, was slow before mods especially in summer when it's really hot outside.

p.s. I'm in Massey Auckland, had to drive 1.5 hrs just to get to my practice location.

[Berta]

Damn shame I must admit, i remember taking photo's for Mike on his camera while he was in car's all day.

Agree, I personally found the tech section to be interesting reading, especially starting out.

Yea I was looking at 1300 NA built (USA though) with 130 hp, costs the same as a used 2002 Toyota Corolla!

I'd like to start with stock class. But I also wonder if they allow some mods. The mod I have in mind is a cold air intake or maybe as simple as just wrapping the intake components in insulating tape, and/or using insulating intake manifold gasket with throttle body coolant bypass.

My car had those mods, was slow before mods especially in summer when it's really hot outside.

p.s. I'm in Massey Auckland, had to drive 1.5 hrs just to get to my practice location.

Do you have a motorsport manual? If not then get in touch with Motorsport NZ and get your hands on a copy. I have a feeling it may answer a few questions. For any autocross i've done, classes have simply been fwd, rwd and 4wd, but for any event higher than that they're derived from engine capacity, (taking into account forced induction) so unless you're planning to bolt on a turbo you'd be competing in class A, being a 1300. Within one class people will run anything from a bog standard motor to one that's very highly developed. But back to your origional question, decent tyres usually the easiest way to go quicker.

[Drysnyaty]

so unless you're planning to bolt on a turbo you'd be competing in class A, being a 1300. Within one class people will run anything from a bog standard motor to one that's very highly developed. But back to your origional question, decent tyres usually the easiest way to go quicker.

OUch! That highly developed one even if NA could easily cost a fortune! Right about the tyres and I might get another Starlet for getting more serious, getting the one that had 100 HP 1300 NA stock.

[SingleMan]

Timewerx, having rallied some years ago both EP71 & EP81 Starlets I can answer some questions for you.

But first I should say that the activity you describe that you are involved in presently appears to be the use of public country roads for private practice. Regardless of how careful you believe you are being, this practice is fraught with some danger and is, quite frankly, irresponsible. My suggestion is that you join a car club immediately and get your kicks in organised controlled motorsport.

The suitability of any car will depend on your aspirations going forward in the sport. Of the many rally cars I've owned, the EP71 was possibly the most fun when in relatively standard trim. However whilst we picked up the occasional award with this car, a 1300cc car requires signification modification, at significant cost, to be truly competitive.
As a consequence the small car class (0~1300cc) in most NZ rally series is either no longer running or about to be as the cost of preparing a car outweighs the benefit. So I wouldn't recommend that you build any 1300cc car for rallying and look instead at an existing car in the larger categories.
That said, rallying is an individual sport where people use whatever car they do for a variety of reasons.

The Starlet rear beam axle requires a little negative camber to counter the looseness you've described. About 1 ~ 1.5 degrees from memory. As there's no 'adjustment' available the only way to effect this is to bend it. You don't need to be too scientific about this. We found supporting it on two axle stands and dropping a forklift boom onto it was most effective.

There's no easy answer to your question about tyres. It comes down to a compromise between usage and budget.

[Tarrccrys]

Get yourself a rally car and start to compete as soon as possible.

[Drysnyaty]

The suitability of any car will depend on your aspirations going forward in the sport. Of the many rally cars I've owned, the EP71 was possibly the most fun when in relatively standard trim. However whilst we picked up the occasional award with this car, a 1300cc car requires signification modification, at significant cost, to be truly competitive.
As a consequence the small car class (0~1300cc) in most NZ rally series is either no longer running or about to be as the cost of preparing a car outweighs the benefit. So I wouldn't recommend that you build any 1300cc car for rallying and look instead at an existing car in the larger categories.

Thanks a lot for the advice Sollitt! for that, I think I'll get a 1.6L Toyota Corolla E110, but not sure how good/durable the suspension in gravel compared to the Starlets/Corsa.

[Drysnyaty]

As a consequence the small car class (0~1300cc) in most NZ rally series is either no longer running or about to be as the cost of preparing a car outweighs the benefit.

I was wondering, if I drop a 1500cc NA engine in the Starlet, would that move it up to the 1500/1600 cc class or not or disqualify it in any class? Would be better option for me than getting a slightly larger 1500 cc car which is significantly heavier.

So far, I got the handling nailed on the RBR simulator so I'm practicing virtually for now. Saves a lot of time and money in practice. I have tonnes of faith in the simulator as the real car responded in exact same crappy manner to my crappy driving in both simulator and real life and working on that.