[altosburg]

What an awful policy. Harvard and When in Rome do as the mother f*cking Romans. Muslims immigrants who come to the US should realize most Americans don't give two sh*ts about their barbaric customs back at home.

They should either own up to the fact they have to live with other people who are not Muslim or go back.

Ironic how, in the pursuit of the ultimate enlightenment and tolerance, ivory tower college liberals gladly institute and defend ass-backwards medieval practices which crassly conflict with everything they believe in.

Let's not forget what happened when lawrence summers, president of harvard suggested that women might have different innate abilities and preferences in education and was fired about a year and a half later in the ensuing shitstorm.

[Fetowip]

Apparently barring women from a gym at certain hours is okay but god forbid you offend muslims. Here's an article about a Pace student who got in trouble for rightfully putting the Koran in a toilet and taking a dump on it.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008...ped_quran.html

A former Pace University student who twice threw copies of the Quran into a toilet at the school after disputes with Muslims pleaded guilty Monday to disorderly conduct in connection with the incidents.

Stanislav Shmulevich, 24, pleaded guilty as part of a deal in which he must do 300 hours of community service. He has completed about 80 hours of the service at a hospital, his lawyer said.

Shmulevich, of Brooklyn, admitted he tossed the Muslim holy books into toilets at Pace on Oct. 13, 2006, and Nov. 21, 2006. A criminal complaint says the Quran that was recovered in the October incident "was covered in feces."

In both cases, a teacher found the books in a men's room on the second floor of the school's main building in lower Manhattan.

Muslims consider the Quran a sacred writing that contains the direct word of God, and desecrating it is seen as an offense against God.

Detective Faisal Khan, who prepared the complaint, said Shmulevich told him "he committed the acts out of anger toward a group of Muslim students with whom he had a recent disagreement."

Shmulevich, a business major and immigrant from the former Soviet Union, initially was charged with two counts of criminal mischief as a hate crime. The charge is a felony punishable by up to four years in prison.

His lawyer, Glenn Morak, said he believed the disorderly conduct plea was an appropriate disposition.

"There was no hate crime here," Morak said. "He accepts responsibility, and he is repentant."

Shmulevich, the lawyer said, is no longer at Pace, which has about 14,000 students on its campuses in New York City and Westchester County.

[AlabamaBoyz]

When debating abridging the rights of one group to provide for the rights of another, you need to weigh the harm done in each option, whether there are other possibilities to solving the conflict, and ultimately choose the solution that does the least harm.

In this case, assuming all other facts are irrelevant (unbiased news sources, yeah, right, but it has to be assumed to have the discussion), it certainly sounds like the harm done by refusing admission to half the student body is far greater than the harm done to the muslim students, whose sensibilities are offended.

I think the solution might be rather simpler - encourage the muslim students to start a workout class where they might work out with others of similar opinions in a room in the gym (presumably this is a large enough gym to have rooms for workout classes). It is a fairly simple solution that gives both groups what they want mostly, while not seriously harming anyone's rights...

[tobaccoman]

Is it really that hard to just expel students that make stupid demands?

[smifatv]

It was put forth as an issue of civil rights, so I treated it as such. Harvard does have an obligation, as a public institution (even if not one funded by public moneys) to treat people equally and such (ie, they can't just accept white kids). Certainly this is not a situation that could end up in court without being thrown out forthwith, given the relatively insignificant relevance of this particular issue; but that does not mean Harvard can't choose to treat it as an issue of conflicting rights - or conflicting opinions/desires. You can view any governmental (even 'governments' like Harvard's board) intervention as resolving a conflict of rights (or interests or desires, whatever word you prefer); any governmental action that cannot be viewed as such is an unnecessary one.

The argument that "Harvard is an american institution" is pure hogwash. America is a land of multiculturalism where no one culture is assumed superior, or at least is supposed to be; and when possible we make allowances for cultures very different from our own. The argument against this is that it is too significant a harm to justify the benefit, not that it's unreasonable to try and accept others' beliefs.

[Feelundseenna]

That's irrelevant to the quoted statement, which clearly states that in this case it's inappropriate.

[satthackacibe]

Is it really that hard to just expel students that make stupid demands? Yeah Sheik, take yer kid and yer millions and go home because Harvard dont want yer money


as for the OP part of me is tired of religious folks making demands on the rest of us and part of me understands that Harvard should make accommodations to their students and I suspect roughly half the school is female. Hell, we were dividing up gym time for the girls back when I was in school.

[KraskiNetu]

Originally posted by snoopy369
It was put forth as an issue of civil rights, so I treated it as such. Harvard does have an obligation, as a public institution (even if not one funded by public moneys) to treat people equally and such (ie, they can't just accept white kids). Sounds to me like they were treating people equally. In fact, sounds to me that the people complaining were complaining about being treated equally. Moreover, banning half the student body from facilities that they have paid for in order to accomodate someone's religious belief gets perilously close to a publicly-funded institution participating in the "establishment of religion" -- and that's another no-no.

That's precisely why it matters that Harvard is an American institution -- because it was demonstrating what we mean by "equal" in America. We are not a multi-cultural society; we are an assimilationist society, and that definition of equal is one thing people are expected to assimilate to. Don't like it? Hey, nobody forced you to go to Harvard.

[skydaypat]

They're just imposing societal mores, much like "no swimming naked." The difference, of course, is that almost all of society is opposed to public nudity, and only a few Muslims are against clothed coed swimming. Sort of pointless. But then, I don't go to Harvard, so I don't care.

[NiliSpuppypax]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Is it really that hard to just expel students that make stupid demands? Harvard recently got a lot of money from Saudi Arabia. They aren't about to do anything.

Originally posted by snoopy369
When debating abridging the rights of one group to provide for the rights of another, you need to weigh the harm done in each option, whether there are other possibilities to solving the conflict, and ultimately choose the solution that does the least harm.

In this case, assuming all other facts are irrelevant (unbiased news sources, yeah, right, but it has to be assumed to have the discussion), it certainly sounds like the harm done by refusing admission to half the student body is far greater than the harm done to the muslim students, whose sensibilities are offended.

I think the solution might be rather simpler - encourage the muslim students to start a workout class where they might work out with others of similar opinions in a room in the gym (presumably this is a large enough gym to have rooms for workout classes). It is a fairly simple solution that gives both groups what they want mostly, while not seriously harming anyone's rights... So the group you fear the most, or that has the deepest pockets gets the most rights?


BOSTON - A Saudi prince believed to be the wealthiest businessman in the Muslim world has donated $40 million for Harvard and Georgetown to expand their Islamic studies programs, the schools announced Monday.

Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud, who gave $20 million to each university, is a nephew of the late King Fahd and worth upward of $20 billion, according to Forbes magazine, which ranked him fifth on its 2005 list of the world’s billionaires. Thats from a now deprecated yahoo news link.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/...slamic_studies

[Kokomoxddcvcv]

Originally posted by Riesstiu IV
If Harvard even remotely cared for the principles they stand for, they would have refused money from a man who comes from the most repressive nations in the world. Colleges should refuse all donations

[CamVideoQl]

No similar arrangement has been made for male students or for other religious groups. There should be a set time for those whose cult forbids them to workout in the presence of muslims.

[Battwenue]

Cows have no brains and are fat sources of iron that **** everywhere. If you have a moral objection to torturing and devouring them you have mental problems.

[Petrushkaukrop]

Well by torture I mean keeping them in confined spaces for economic reasons, and chopping their heads off slowly if it makes the meat yummier, etc. Not torture for the sake of it, but for other reasons, if the animal is simply so retarded but so useful.

[virtuah]

Sometimes he tries to relate a subject to vegetarianism AND Buddhism. Not often, though. He mostly saves that for "enlightened vegetarianism/Buddha loves Broccoli" threads.

[Opperioav]

Originally posted by Riesstiu IV


Do you try to relate every subject to Vegetarianism or Buddhism? Vegetarianism is just a hobby of mine, I associate closely with the Thai Forest Tradition of Theravada Buddhism, which isn't vegetarian but is the most true to Buddha. If I were a hardcore vegetarianism idealistic, I'd have to associate with Mahayana Buddhism or something - but vegetarianism isn't THAT important, it's only nice.

But I do relate every subject to Buddhism. That's because I have the Buddhist attitude to life . So all things ARE Buddhism to me .
There's no trying about it .

[rionetrozasa]

Well, all things do have Buddha nature.

[Unoloknovagog]

Religion just is.

[Cengaeas]

Wiggy I don't think it was for entertainment .

[SnareeWer]

Originally posted by Oerdin
No similar arrangement has been made for male students or for other religious groups. This seems irrelevant, unless said groups have petitioned for seperate gym-hours and were denied.

unAmerican This is an awkward argument to use in this context.