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#21 |
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#22 |
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Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I've gotten A's and C-'s and now I advise the students I tutor that it isn't about the work. If the prof likes you you will get an A, if they don't it's a C-. I tell them to write their papers to fit what the prof likes and they will do well. Works like a charm. That's a mockery of academia. You should write about what you want and defend it. You just advocate ego stroking. |
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#23 |
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#24 |
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Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I think students ought to be permitted to manage their time outside of class the way they see fit. It's funny how other employers are allowed to prohibit moonlighting, but we aren't. Being a student is really a job, especially in Canada, where the public picks up a lot of the tab. If a student wants to slack, he should be allowed to do so and get the marks reflected in his coursework. Except that universities have rules that you are only allowed to fail a certain percentage of students and only give a certain percentage top marks. I've seen this rule overturned once in my university career, and that was a course I TAed in where for some inexplicable reason all the students did brilliantly on the final exam. The sheer amount of red tape we had to go through was enough to put the lecturer off doing it again. Students know this, so there is a fair degree of satisficing that goes on. This is particularly evident in humanities and social science courses, where the grading is not done on a point per answer basis. I've gotten A's and C-'s and now I advise the students I tutor that it isn't about the work. If the prof likes you you will get an A, if they don't it's a C-. I tell them to write their papers to fit what the prof likes and they will do well. Then you had some appalling teachers. I always enjoy getting papers from people who disagree with me (although I make a point of not telling the students my own views). I can't say that I've ever graded people based on their agreement with my somewhat peculiar beliefs. Papers should be graded on how well the student has argued, not what the conclusion is. I feel your pain about history professors though. The only low grade I ever got was from a history professor. I guess it was my own fault for humiliating her week in and week out for her bullshit philosophical beliefs (she was one of those postmodernist *****). |
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#25 |
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Originally posted by Snotty
I think it would be more motivating for general everyday students if they are funding themselves rather than if the government is funding them. If you have to repay your debt you are less likely to spend that university time slacking off as you are only ripping yourself off. this is true in the US the main differences seem between students who have scholarships or work, these treat education more seriously normally.. although if they have to work too many hours they start having a harder time having the hours to study and the other type of student often has their parents pay everything for them, these types of students are less likely to treat their education seriously and are more likely to be spending their time partying/etc then studying JM |
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#26 |
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Originally posted by Jon Miller
this is true in the US the main differences seem between students who have scholarships or work, these treat education more seriously normally.. although if they have to work too many hours they start having a harder time having the hours to study and the other type of student often has their parents pay everything for them, these types of students are less likely to treat their education seriously and are more likely to be spending their time partying/etc then studying JM A catch 22 then? ![]() ![]() You're right about the last one, but only partly I think? Succeeding your exams is important if you want your parents to keep funding you. Say if you keep failing those exams you will either have to drop out or pay for it yourself, and that's not particularly an improvement I dare say. In my experience having your parents pay university doesn't show a significant difference. Then again, over here the entrance fee for one regular year costs some €550 for one year, a room in the city plus expenses not included of course. Studying here is probably a bit less of a burden for parents to let the kids go to university as in most other countries. It costs our government a shitload of money to subsidise all that though. PS: people having a job don't always do a good job because they can't go to classes, can't meet deadlines if they're busy at work etc. Last year for example I was required to write a 35 page paper on some EU-Algerian association agreement with a certain female who worked at some government ministry or somesuch. I ended up writing it all alone in two weeks, while she hadn't even contacted me at all! True to my altruistic nature, I sent here the powerpoint so we did the presentation together :/ Looks like the partydrunks aren't always the ones slacking eh! |
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#28 |
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Originally posted by -Jrabbit
My grades went up significantly when I started paying my own way. OTOH, I'm paying for my daughter's college, and she's doing brilliantly. Some I think will work hard no matter what. I would put myself in that group. Question though, do you press your daughter to get good grades? Some do, some don't. I think many in the US don't. JM |
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#29 |
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Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
That's what I did myself. The grades reflected the teacher's position on the issues. The teachers who liked me gave me an A, and the ones who didn't gave me C-, I had no grades in between the two. That's the state of so called academia. I thought oyu took some physics/math? JM |
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#30 |
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It's really quite obvious to me. Why would you work hard and try to succeed if it isn't costing you anything? The people who are having to sacrifice are going to make sure that they succeed due to that sacrifice, because otherwise the sacrifice doesn't make sense. You assume that the main motivator is that of a return on your own financial investment in the courses. Given the amount I've spent I can understand that reasoning but when I was younger (pre-drugs) I worked very hard on my courses because I wanted to succeed. I think it's the attitude of "I want to succeed" that is the main motivator for people.
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#31 |
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I had a B+ average in highschool, and got a good scholarship to college (I only applied for one good one and one poor one).
I had a B+ average in college, and applied and got into some of the best graduate schools in the US (not the very best, but top 20 - almost top 10). And in graduate school, as long as you don't fail, grades don't matter at all. JM |
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#33 |
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Originally posted by Whaleboy
It's a pretty pisspoor way of doing that. I accept that coursework isn't ideal for the exceptional student but I suspect that's because when there are criteria that do not account for you reading around the subject, any fool can learn the syllabus. The exceptional student will read around and coursework represents a fabulous opportunity for the bright student to demonstrate that. We just need to get out of the "box-ticking" mentality for education pre university imo. I sort of disagree with that, sort of don't. I have a few suppositions that leads to that opinion. 1. Your grade in a college course should reflect the degree to which you understand the material (in a lecture/'knowledge' course) and/or the degree to which you can discuss the material (in writing or verbally). A = 100% understanding / Complete understanding of the subject | Expert Ability to intelligently and accurately discuss the subject B = 80% understanding / Good understanding of most of the material on the subject | Ability to discuss the subject with no significant inaccuracies and reasonably intelligently C = 60% understanding / Basic understanding of the material on the subject | Ability to discuss at a basic level the subject, but with some inaccuracy D = Low understanding / Significant lack of understanding of basic material | Inability to discuss the subject on any level beyond very basic, significant factual inaccuracies F = No understanding / No understanding of the subject matter or ability to discuss it It goes without saying that I'd consider a D a failing grade (as do many good colleges). It is valuable to tell a person how much improvement they need to make when failing them. 2. I consider grading in college useful to help a student understand how well they understood the subject, not as a competitive marker. College is not about 'getting good grades' or 'being the top in your class', but about 'learning the material necessary to do X'. Even for academic majors (ie philosophy, literature, etc.), it is still fundamentally about teaching you to do something - to discuss/write about material and to understand what you are writing about. 3. As such, I don't consider a grading scale that is aimed to 'identify bright students' to be a good one. I don't care how **** bright you are (and I was considered very bright in school), if you understand the material and can discuss it intelligently, you've done well. Students who need their egos massaged to remind them how smart they are, need to learn how to deal with things better; they're the ones who in performance review time in the business world are pissed that they didn't get a top rating, when 'top rating' means something more than just 'intelligent'... 4. So, ultimately, I think that exams are the best way to go (and written essays of course). Not necessarily *timed* exams, mind you (as you object correctly earlier in the thread), but not coursework at all. Coursework is for you to better understand the material, and to the extent that it is corrected/turned in (only in lower level classes where your ability to know if you understood the material might be questioned) should not count towards your grade. Almost as bad as counting 'attendance' as many discussion courses are like to; frankly if you don't attend, you won't be able to show your understanding and ability to discuss the material, and so your grade will suffer, but that should be apparent with or without the 'attendance' portion of the grade. My perfect grading system would be take-home essays (in the real world you can use google, your understanding of online resources is just as important as your understanding of the actual material; and trust me, I can figure out if you copied an essay rather than just using source material) and in-class exams that had relatively relaxed time schedules (you can stay in the room as long as the room is free). Timing an exam gives some value - namely, the ability to QUICKLY recall information has value in the real world - but knowing the material correctly >> knowing it quickly, as a lot of BSers will quickly answer the question but answer it incorrectly, and do more harm that way. |
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