[TornadoPD]

I've read that there is the DoD's first (only?) acupuncture clinic at Andrews, where they train doctor-type people in "Battlefield Acupuncture". I side with the overwhelming majority of relevant scientific and medical data that acupuncture is nothing more than pseudoscientific placebo-driven mumbo jumbo, given the success of everything from sham acupuncture (twirling toothpicks on the skin as a control) to random placement of the needles (it doesn't matter where the needles go as long as the acupuncturist sticks needles in them), etc.

So, does anyone here know if they are still running the clinic?

[gMUVgw71]

Don't know about the clinic but acupuncture rocks and I don't think it's the placebo effect; even if it were, whatever works, it still works, what's the big deal?

[pymnConyelell]

Don't know about the clinic but acupuncture rocks and I don't think it's the placebo effect; even if it were, whatever works, it still works, what's the big deal?

Taking money for a practice that doesn't really do anything while saying it does is wholly dishonest.

[DailyRingtone]

Taking money for a practice that doesn't really do anything while saying it does is wholly dishonest.

If the practice itself actually produces the "placebo effect" isn't it working? If it take the 'props' of a medical procedure to 'fool' the mind into producing the effect, what's the difference? I'm playing devil's advocate here because I have indeed had great luck with acupuncture for a few different maladies and to great success.

I have bad knees and over 30 years and eight surgeries, arthritis, and an Air Force career they get painful. Anyone with arthritis will tell you it's worse in damp or cold weather and the ache is very deep in the bones. NSAIDs can't touch the pain but I have had acupuncture be very effective. I hope the practice becomes more widespread in military medicine.

[thakitt]

If the practice itself actually produces the "placebo effect" isn't it working? If it take the 'props' of a medical procedure to 'fool' the mind into producing the effect, what's the difference? I'm playing devil's advocate here because I have indeed had great luck with acupuncture for a few different maladies and to great success.

I have bad knees and over 30 years and eight surgeries, arthritis, and an Air Force career they get painful. Anyone with arthritis will tell you it's worse in damp or cold weather and the ache is very deep in the bones. NSAIDs can't touch the pain but I have had acupuncture be very effective. I hope the practice becomes more widespread in military medicine.

Acupuncture is not science-based medicine and your anecdote for its purported "success" does not become evidence. There is nothing that distinguishes acupuncture from, say, magnet therapy or reiki. Both rely on the placebo effect to work. I see it as a waste of money and resources to train military doctors in something that is NOT viewed as mainstream medicine. Every dollar used to run the acupuncture clinic would be much better spent on program which use real medicine and real science to produce real effects.

Acupuncture is no more effective than a sugar pill. In fact, I can link you to studies in PubMed where sham acupuncture (that is, twirling toothpicks on the skin to simulate needle penetration) is just as effective as actual acupuncture, if you'd like to review the data. I can do the same for needling random spots vs the "specific locations", if you'd like. Same with an encompassing meta-analysis confirming the consensus that acupuncture is no more effective than placebo.

Even if you are willing to admit that it is simply placebo, why bother taking (read: wasting) the time and money to train military doctors? You could give an A1C a tube of toothpicks, have the patient roll onto their stomach, and he could "needle" random spots on your body, all to produce the same effect.

So really, tell me if you ever went to the doctors where he was touching, well, any part of you. He wore gloves every time, right?


Martha Lewis, 62, has a tiny gold acupuncture needle inserted in her ear by Air Force physician Col. Richard Niemtzow, at the acupuncture clinic on Andrews Air Force Base, Md., in December.
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28930238/


Source: http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,164071,00.html

This shows a wanton, blatant disregard for sterile technique.
Example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18684094

Acupuncture has much to be desired when it comes to graduating from "alternative medicine" to "real medicine".

[rNr5Di3S]

Edit: Double Post

[Flerdourdyged]

I am currently studying "real," allopathic or "Western" medicine. I have been around medicine for many years. I have been treated by physicians all my life. After much study and experience I can say with confidence the Eastern and Western medicine have both their weak points and strengths. I certainly wouldn't go to an acupuncturist for a broken bone but I might for the pain associated with healing after it's been set.

Anecdotal medicine is the basis of what is commonly called "evidence-based medicine" which is standard protocol in diagnosis and treatment, so while my specific experience alone is inconsequential, once joined in a body of other patient outcomes can become a basis for judgment of the treatment.

You seem hostile to the concept of alternative medicine which in fact has become more accepted over the time and space of several generations. I see a natural marriage between the two which I know from experience is yet to be fully recognized in Western practice. As a future practitioner myself, I expect to follow established protocols with some inclusion of other recognized alternative therapies as part of a patient's overall treatment plan.

In any case, I believe in thinking outside the box and if acupuncture turns out to be part of the mix, I'm okay with that as an additional tool in treating human illness. Oh and physicians do an number of things including physical contact with patients without gloves.

[ffdfriendforurr]

I am currently studying "real," allopathic or "Western" medicine. I have been around medicine for many years. I have been treated by physicians all my life. After much study and experience I can say with confidence the Eastern and Western medicine have both their weak points and strengths.

//"Western" medicine has a body of evidence to support its claims, "Eastern" medicine what, smells better? Can you provide actual data to support the claim you are making here?

I certainly wouldn't go to an acupuncturist for a broken bone but I might for the pain associated with healing after it's been set.

//You could see a Pez dispenser and get the same benefits.

Anecdotal medicine is the basis of what is commonly called "evidence-based medicine" which is standard protocol in diagnosis and treatment, so while my specific experience alone is inconsequential, once joined in a body of other patient outcomes can become a basis for judgment of the treatment.

//The snippet from the JAMA article says nothing to agree with what you said. The plural of "anecdote" is NOT evidence. Also, you skip the whole "does this actually DO anything" portion of discerning reality frm otherwise. You need to actually demonstrate that acupuncture/whatever DOES something before it gets a chance to gain status as a possible treatment.

You seem hostile to the concept of alternative medicine which in fact has become more accepted over the time and space of several generations.

//Examples?

I see a natural marriage between the two which I know from experience is yet to be fully recognized in Western practice.

//More like a parasitic relationship between the body's ability to recover and "alternative medicine" getting credit for it.

As a future practitioner myself, I expect to follow established protocols with some inclusion of other recognized alternative therapies as part of a patient's overall treatment plan.

//Again, examples?

In any case, I believe in thinking outside the box and if acupuncture turns out to be part of the mix, I'm okay with that as an additional tool in treating human illness.

If acupuncture can come up with data and a preponderance of evidence to support the claims it makes, I'm fine with it being used as well. Until then, falsely legitimizing something like acupuncture by giving it a DoD stamp of approval is reckless, in my opinion.

Oh and physicians do an number of things including physical contact with patients without gloves.

//Such as? I've never had a doctor touch any part of my body without gloves. Sterile technique is pretty important, methinks.

Alternative medicine needs to earn its seat via reliable data, positive outcomes, and good science. Until then, it will never become actual medicine.

[discountviagraman]

The reality of it is, we active duty types with chronic pain or lasting conditions don't have the full array of treatment and prescription options available to us (in some cases, rightly so). Any effort to alleviate sustained pain, is something I can get behind.

Andrews also has a new stress clinic where you can meditate, sit in a zero gravity chair, or get a massage. I hear they're looking at getting a couple of inversion tables as well.

[Sydaycymn]

The reality of it is, we active duty types with chronic pain or lasting conditions don't have the full array of treatment and prescription options available to us (in some cases, rightly so). Any effort to alleviate sustained pain, is something I can get behind.

Andrews also has a new stress clinic where you can meditate, sit in a zero gravity chair, or get a massage. I hear they're looking at getting a couple of inversion tables as well.

Here, I have a magic crystal in my pocket. If you rub it on your forehead, it filters your chi and reduces your pain.

[ambientambien]

I am currently studying "real," allopathic or "Western" medicine. I have been around medicine for many years. I have been treated by physicians all my life. After much study and experience I can say with confidence that Eastern and Western medicine have both their weak points and strengths. //"Western" medicine has a body of evidence to support its claims, "Eastern" medicine what, smells better? Can you provide actual data to support the claim you are making here? -Evidence exists on both sides.

I certainly wouldn't go to an acupuncturist for a broken bone but I might for the pain associated with healing after it's been set. //You could see a Pez dispenser and get the same benefits.

Anecdotal medicine is the basis of what is commonly called "evidence-based medicine" which is standard protocol in diagnosis and treatment, so while my specific experience alone is inconsequential, once joined in a body of other patient outcomes can become a basis for judgment of the treatment. //The snippet from the JAMA article says nothing to agree with what you said. The plural of "anecdote" is NOT evidence. Also, you skip the whole "does this actually DO anything" portion of discerning reality frm otherwise. You need to actually demonstrate that acupuncture/whatever DOES something before it gets a chance to gain status as a possible treatment. -I am not authorized to publish any more of the JAMA abstract--it is by subscription only.-EBM (Evidence-Based Medicine) was initially proposed by Dr. David Sackett and colleagues at McMasters University in Ontario, Canada. Dr. Sackett himself says, "good doctors use both individual clinical expertise and the best available external evidence, and neither alone is enough." Part of the body of "clinical expertise" and "best available external evidence" is anecdotal experience along with reliable studies and established clinical evidence.

You seem hostile to the concept of alternative medicine which in fact has become more accepted over the time and space of several generations. //Examples? - Read your posts, See above "pez dispenser" comment. The most recent one about crystals has a markedly hostile tone.

I see a natural marriage between the two which I know from experience is yet to be fully recognized in Western practice. //More like a parasitic relationship between the body's ability to recover and "alternative medicine" getting credit for it. -Your opinion. Many would disagree. I don't have time to track down studies about alternative medicines benefits and short-comings--there are both available in abundance. I think there are a number of 'alternative' therapies' which have proven helpful in a number of ways. The point of clinics like the one at Andrews, is to learn, promote healing and add to the body of knowledge on this particular modality. Your blatant disdain adds nothing to the conversation.

It's a free country and you are free to pursue the style of medical care you like best which most agrees with your philosophy of medicine. Medical education is rigorous and my desired outcome is to become a licensed practitioner using the best available information, methodology, and modalities to heal my patients. I will have legal and ethical constraints to consider and I will ALWAYS keep the tenets of the Hippocratic Oath at the fore, "First do no harm."

As a future practitioner myself, I expect to follow established protocols with some inclusion of other recognized alternative therapies as part of a patient's overall treatment plan.//Again, examples? - Of what? My future practice?


In any case, I believe in thinking outside the box and if acupuncture turns out to be part of the mix, I'm okay with that as an additional tool in treating human illness. //If acupuncture can come up with data and a preponderance of evidence to support the claims it makes, I'm fine with it being used as well. Until then, falsely legitimizing something like acupuncture by giving it a DoD stamp of approval is reckless, in my opinion. -Again, your opinion. I didn't see you today at med school; sick day?

Oh and physicians do an number of things including physical contact with patients without gloves.//Such as? I've never had a doctor touch any part of my body without gloves. Sterile technique is pretty important, methinks. -Many types of examinations necessitate the sensitivity of bare fingers to palpate areas to find irregularities. Many parts of a physical exam are commonly done without gloves because gloves are not necessary. "Sterile technique" is used for culturing, test tubes, slides, etc. Surgical asepsisis not necessary or desirable in regards to patient comfort for many aspects of a physical examination. I would challenge your statement of "never...without gloves" as argumentative and untrue; unless you have had cooties your entire life.

[Adfcvkdg]

Evidence exists on both sides to say, what, that placebo is a very real phenomenon which can help the body through pain? What does acupuncture do that, in my previously-stated example, magnets or crystal therapy doesn’t do?

As for EBM, you still concede that any “good doctor” still should (partly) rely on the best available external evidence, to which you have not provided even a single example. Science-Base Medicine still demands those pesky double (or triple) blind, controlled trials in which it is shown that acupuncture is no more useful than placebo.

My first request for examples comes as a response to your claim that “the concept of alternative medicine which in fact has become more accepted over the time and space of several generations”.

There is no marriage between medicine and alternative medicine. Things that work are called “medicine”, things that do not but still make the same claims are called “alternative medicine”. If it worked, it wouldn’t be called alternative medicine. These are why anyone is justified in being particularly skeptical of claims that needles can adjust the flow of some indescribable, undetectable life-energy or whatever it claims to do. All hocus-pocus. According to the webpage of the one who started it all, Col. (Dr.) Richard Niemtzow, pain is routed through the ears, and a thorough ear-poking is an appropriate response to somebody who ran over an IED while on patrol. (Source: http://www.n5ev.com/PDF%20BATTLEFIELD%20ACUP.pdf)

I’m asking which “alternative practices” you plan on using. Homeopathic medicine? Acupuncture? Reiki? Magnet Therapy? Some Quantum Healing spinoff? How do you discern “good” alternative medicine from “LOL not really” alternative medicine?

You don’t see a problem with the DoD proceeding with acupuncture when it is NOT accepted in the medical community as a reliable way to treat pain? I recently got a “plug this device into your car to save 10-30% on gas mileage” pulled from the shelves on my base (and I can only hope that it either has not been ordered by AAFES abroad, or that my complaints severed those supply lines as well). I can There is obviously some sort of implied legitimacy when you find something on a military base. Whether it is a scam device or a medical treatment which provides no actual mechanism aside from the body’s own ability to relieve pain, do you think there should be some sort of credibility measurement for these sorts of things? I mean, surely, the DoD has bought into some pretty absurd garbage (see the Quadro Tracker), but fortunately learns to recognize such hokum (See the Dowsing Rod system ADE 651 bought up by the Iraqi military).

The New England Journal of Medicine recently published an interesting article, to which it concluded the following:

“The combined results of two RCTs comparing an earlier surgical procedure for angina — bilateral internal mammary artery ligation (BIMAL) — to a sham surgery clearly show that patients “experienced significant subjective improvement,” with both BIMAL (67% substantial improvement) and the sham procedure (82% substantial improvement). [see Moerman, Meaning, Medicine and the “Placebo Effect”, 2002]”

There seems to be a bit of disruption in the medical community that I follow over the NEJM article, but the conclusion should be considered interesting, at least. In one corner, we have acupuncture. In the other, we have sham acupuncture. Who comes out top?

The sham treatment, by some 15%.

Would you prescribe any medication where the placebo version is more effective than what you are prescribing?

Lastly, as for not wearing gloves, I can speak from my personal experience that any time a doctor put anything in my body, they wore gloves and I’m fairly certain you’d have to concede the same. So, while checking for swelling would not require gloves, I made a mistake in assuming that we both understand the relevance involved in a practice where metal needles are stuck into patients.

[colmedindustry]

I actually have homework but you did say, "I've never had a doctor touch any part of my body without gloves." which not the same thing as,"...any time a doctor put anything in my body."

I actually am a big proponent of the 'placebo effect' and I believe our bodies have great recuperative powers. I have no immediate plans for incorporating any therapies outside of my current medical curriculum, and I have a residency once school is finished in a yet undetermined specialty, so you getting all cranky about acupuncture is all for naught. The DoD is doing it and you don't have to so give it a rest.

[vipBrooriErok]

I corrected myself by stating that, in the context of acupuncture, I've never had a doctor put anything like a needle into me without gloves, yet this is common practice among acupuncturists.

Of course our bodies have the incredible power to heal. However, to give sham treatments like acupuncture, psychic healing, homeopathy (although specifically acupuncture in this context) credit for what our bodies do naturally is dishonest, at best. The whole point of me asking in the thread if anyone knows any first-hand details about the clinic is because I'm looking to save the DoD money by ending the program. The DoD is doing it and they are wasting money, time, and giving people false hope.