[Indian Butt Magic]

I'd like to add just that if the unmarked water is unnatural (i.e. not usually there), you get a free drop at the nearest point of relief. If it's water that's in play regularly, complain to the course that it should be marked.

Which is the same ruling for any unnatural substances present (i.e. snow or ice)

[Zfdeisde]

It is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from an immovable obstruction, abnormal ground condition, or Wrong putting green.

It is the point nearest to where the ball lies that:
- is no nearer the hole
-if the ball is positioned here there is no interference from the condition from which relief is being taken for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

In other words, if you were behind the yardage marker in the fairway and it interfered with your stroke or stance you would find a spot to the left or right of that where your stance and swing are clear of the marker. Stick a tee in the ground at that point. This is the nearest point of relief.

Now you proceed with measuring and dropping from that point.

Just to clarify on Ted's comment, the place (NPR) where you "stick a tee in the ground at that point" is the spot where the head of the club, with which you would have made your next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke, rests on the ground, NOT your feet as you take your stance.

[NumDusthouh]

#2 Wouldn't it be called casual water? Water is not an unnatural substance. If there is water and its not marked as a hazard it is casual water. The procedure for relief is the same as an immovable obstruction.

[gIWnXYkw]

Based on his question's wording and the fact that there weren't any hazard stakes marking the water (and the implication that there should have been), I don't think the water in question is casual water, but a body of water instead that just wasn't marked by hazard stakes.

In this case, Omega is right. It is an actual body of water... pond, that didn't have any red or yellow stakes around it.

[gIWnXYkw]

Just to clarify on Ted's comment, the place (NPR) where you "stick a tee in the ground at that point" is the spot where the head of the club, with which you would have made your next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke, rests on the ground, NOT your feet as you take your stance.

Sorry Omega, but in plain English, I set up as if I'm going to hit the ball pretending the obstruction isn't there. Wherever the head of my club lies, I put the tee there? Wouldn't that just be wherever the ball currently lies?

[gedsiz]

1. Yes, you get one club length's relief from the nearest point of relief (NPR) from the man-made immovable obstruction. No penalty strokes are incurred.

2. Yes, you go back and hit from the tee under penalty of 1 stroke and distance, as your ball is unplayable under Rule 28. Water must be marked as a hazard (lateral or otherwise) for the hazard rules regarding dropping under penalty of stroke only to apply.

3. It's not so important where you stand but where your ball is dropped, as per the rules (within 2 club length's of the NPR under penalty of 1 stroke).

3. Relief is 2 club lengths from where the ball last crossed the hazard, not NPR

[Zfdeisde]

Sorry Omega, but in plain English, I set up as if I'm going to hit the ball pretending the obstruction isn't there. Wherever the head of my club lies, I put the tee there? Wouldn't that just be wherever the ball currently lies?

Or is the NPR the place where my club head can lie at address and not be interfered with by the obstruction?

Can I back up as far as I want to? And would the same process take place if you take an unplayable, just a penalty would be incurred?

The NPR is the place where your clubhead rests at address as you take your stance and are free from interference at all points of your golf swing (address, backswing, downswing, followthrough). It's at this place where you would place your tee to mark the NPR.

The club you must use when determining NPR is a club that you would have normally used to hit that shot if no such interference exists (in other words, you can't use a driver to determine NPR if you would normally have used a pitching wedge to hit your shot).

However, once you determine your NPR, you are free to use any club in your bag to determine the appropriate lengths (usually one or two) from the NPR. Most players will use the longest club in their bag to achieve the greatest distances from NPR, but it's up to you to decide. No, telescoping ball retrievers do NOT count (mush to the chagrin of some players in my gambling group).

Depending on the rule in question, you might be able to back up but that has nothing to do with determining NPR, which again is NEAREST point of relief (not backing up as far as you can go while keeping a line between a point of entry into a hazard's margin and the hole).

[gIWnXYkw]

As stated, I've got a few ruling questions that I could use some clarification help with...

1) On a par four today, I hit a really nice drive, but there was a yardage marker about a foot, maybe less, in front of my ball. It was a square, concrete or rock type marker - maybe 3 feet high or so. I don't think moving it was an option, but it obviously obstructed my shot. I gave myself relief but not sure what the actual ruling is. If it's a penalty, that seems pretty unfair because it's an unnatural object. IMO, if it penalizes the player it shouldn't be there - just put a round marker in the ground instead of a three feet tall concret marker. Seems like if you get relief from a sprinkler head, you should from a concrete marker too.

2) I hit a ball in the water but the water didn't have any hazard markers, not red or yellow. So, should you go back to the tee and play it as a lost ball or is water a hazard all the time, regardless if there is a red marker present.

3) Let's say your ball goes into a red marked water hazard. Where do you stand to take your drop? On the red line surrounding the water? Right on the bank/edge of the water? Just inside the red line?

Thanks guys!

[Zfdeisde]

#2 Wouldn't it be called casual water? Water is not an unnatural substance. If there is water and its not marked as a hazard it is casual water. The procedure for relief is the same as an immovable obstruction.

Based on his question's wording and the fact that there weren't any hazard stakes marking the water (and the implication that there should have been), I don't think the water in question is casual water, but a body of water instead that just wasn't marked by hazard stakes.

[gIWnXYkw]

Or is the NPR the place where my club head can lie at address and not be interfered with by the obstruction?

Can I back up as far as I want to? And would the same process take place if you take an unplayable, just a penalty would be incurred?

[Tusanoc]

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-01/

[QxmFwtlam]

I'd like to add just that if the unmarked water is unnatural (i.e. not usually there), you get a free drop at the nearest point of relief. If it's water that's in play regularly, complain to the course that it should be marked.

[Zfdeisde]

I'd like to add just that if the unmarked water is unnatural (i.e. not usually there), you get a free drop at the nearest point of relief. If it's water that's in play regularly, complain to the course that it should be marked.

Agreed. That would fall under Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions).

[gIWnXYkw]

Since we're talking about water hazards somewhat here, can anyone explain what just happened with Rory (I know it's tape delay but I'm watching it). He went in the water hazard but was aloud to move around to the other side, equidistant... to what?

[Zoxeeoy]

There are 5 options when you hit into a lateral hazard, he used the least used iption

[gIWnXYkw]

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but another one I'm not certain is... what is the definition of Nearest point of relief?

[Zfdeisde]

3. Relief is 2 club lengths from where the ball last crossed the hazard, not NPR

Thanks. I stand corrected. It's 2 club lengths from where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, not NPR (26-1).

[NumDusthouh]

It is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from an immovable obstruction, abnormal ground condition, or Wrong putting green.

It is the point nearest to where the ball lies that:
- is no nearer the hole
-if the ball is positioned here there is no interference from the condition from which relief is being taken for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

In other words, if you were behind the yardage marker in the fairway and it interfered with your stroke or stance you would find a spot to the left or right of that where your stance and swing are clear of the marker. Stick a tee in the ground at that point. This is the nearest point of relief.

Now you proceed with measuring and dropping from that point.


Omega - all he originally said was that he hit it in the water, not pond or anything. The only way I can see under the rules where it could go unmarked is if it is out of bounds or if there is a local rule about it.
Apart from that if there is no margin how can you tell if you are in the hazard?
How would you begin relief procedures with no margin to help determine where the nearest point of relief is or where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard?

[Zfdeisde]

As stated, I've got a few ruling questions that I could use some clarification help with...

1) On a par four today, I hit a really nice drive, but there was a yardage marker about a foot, maybe less, in front of my ball. It was a square, concrete or rock type marker - maybe 3 feet high or so. I don't think moving it was an option, but it obviously obstructed my shot. I gave myself relief but not sure what the actual ruling is. If it's a penalty, that seems pretty unfair because it's an unnatural object. IMO, if it penalizes the player it shouldn't be there - just put a round marker in the ground instead of a three feet tall concret marker. Seems like if you get relief from a sprinkler head, you should from a concrete marker too.

2) I hit a ball in the water but the water didn't have any hazard markers, not red or yellow. So, should you go back to the tee and play it as a lost ball or is water a hazard all the time, regardless if there is a red marker present.

3) Let's say your ball goes into a red marked water hazard. Where do you stand to take your drop? On the red line surrounding the water? Right on the bank/edge of the water? Just inside the red line?

Thanks guys!

1. Yes, you get one club length's relief from the nearest point of relief (NPR) from the man-made immovable obstruction. No penalty strokes are incurred.

2. Yes, you go back and hit from the tee under penalty of 1 stroke and distance, as your ball is unplayable under Rule 28. Water must be marked as a hazard (lateral or otherwise) for the hazard rules regarding dropping under penalty of stroke only to apply.

3. It's not so important where you stand but where your ball is dropped, as per the rules (within 2 club length's of the NPR under penalty of 1 stroke).