[Aaron757]

We play ready golf so sometimes someone will putt when another person in the group is walking to a ball off the back of the green. This means that someone tends the pin rather than pulling it since it will have to be put right back in for the other person. My question is at what point must the pin be pulled? Does it have to be pulled as soon as the ball is hit or is it ok to pull it as the ball nears the hole?

[ambiddetcat]

As long as it gets pulled before the putted ball hits it, it's all good. Hopefully it's already pulled and you are just holding it in the middle of the cup so you don't try to yank it out if it gets stuck and lifts part of the cup out at the same time.

Whenever I am tending the pin, it's already pulled out of the hole at the bottom of the cup.

[loikrso]

Correct. It's a 2 stroke penalty only if the putt is holed from the green while the pin is still in the hole.

[neeclindy]

As long as the ball in motion on a stroke made from the putting green doesn't strike the flagstick, no foul. We do this all the time in the interest of pace of play, even in tournaments. It beats the heck out of everyone just standing around waiting while one player chases after an errant ball.

I suspect that we all play with companions (never any of us of course ) who may on occasion skull a ball over the green.... It actually takes pressure off his next shot if you all aren't standing staring at him and waiting.

[Aaron757]

Foourputt - What if it gets stuck in the hole? Or the person tending doesn't move quickly enough? Does the person putting incur a penalty?

[ambiddetcat]

I'd say whoever struck the putt gets the penalty. The person tending the flag gets a dirty look from whoever is putting.

[loikrso]

As long as the ball in motion on a stroke made from the putting green doesn't strike the flagstick, no foul.

Are you sure about that? I think it is still a 2 stroke penalty even if the ball drops in without striking the flagstick.

[Aaron757]

Are you sure about that? I think it is still a 2 stroke penalty even if the ball drops in without striking the flagstick.

Turnabout is fair play Harry?

[loikrso]

Turnabout is fair play Harry?

huh ?

[fiettariaps]

Foourputt - What if it gets stuck in the hole? Or the person tending doesn't move quickly enough? Does the person putting incur a penalty?

I'd say whoever struck the putt gets the penalty. The person tending the flag gets a dirty look from whoever is putting.

Smallie's right. That's why you should think twice about asking an opponent to tend the flag for you. It's also why, as Smallie earlier suggested, if you are tending the flag for someone else, you should pull it out of the base before your friend putts, just holding it upright in the cup, so you can lift it without anyone getting penalized.

[neeclindy]

Foourputt - What if it gets stuck in the hole? Or the person tending doesn't move quickly enough? Does the person putting incur a penalty?

Actually any person attending the flagstick is deemed to be doing so with the player's authorization, so regardless of the reason, if the ball hits the flagstick it's a 2 stroke penalty on the player. It is a good practice to at least loosen the flagstick before the player strokes the putt to be sure that it isn't stuck. I actually take the flagstick out and angle it to the back of the hole so that the end isn't seated in the socket at all. Then if the putt looks like it has any chance of hitting the hole, I remove the flagstick while the ball is still quite a distance from the hole. There is a responsibility that rests with a flagstick attendant, and it should be taken reasonably seriously.... Especially if it's in a competition or something is otherwise on the line.

Are you sure about that? I think it is still a 2 stroke penalty even if the ball drops in without striking the flagstick.

If the flagstick is its socket in the hole, the ball can't drop into the hole without hitting it. Absolutely impossible.

[loikrso]

If the flagstick is its socket in the hole, the ball can't drop into the hole without hitting it. Absolutely impossible.

Wind.

And even so, if the flag is not in the hole in the middle of the cup that keeps the flagstick in place, the person tending it could have it up against the back of the cup. If the ball lags in, it could go in the cup with the flagstick still in the hole.

But aside from that, what are the actual terms used in the rule?

EDIT:

The rule does say "strike the flagstick":

17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant

The player's ball must not strike:

a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player's authority - see Rule 17-2. EDIT#2

Rules Decision:

17-3/1 Holing Out Without Ball Touching Flagstick

Q. A player plays a stroke from the putting green without having the flagstick attended. The ball stops momentarily on the lip of the hole and then falls into the hole. The player claims that the ball fell into the hole without striking the flagstick and therefore he incurs no penalty under Rule 17-3. Is the claim valid?

A. No. A ball is not holed until it is at rest in the hole — Definition of "Holed." If the flagstick is in the hole, it is impossible for a ball to come to rest in the hole without striking the flagstick. So Fourputt was correct (no surprise there.)

But that still leaves open the possibility (albeit microscopically small) that someone is tending the flag, but doesn't take it out of the hole. Instead, pulls it from the center position and hold it in place at the back of the cup, and the ball falls in without striking the flagstick.

[neeclindy]

Wind.

And even so, if the flag is not in the hole in the middle of the cup that keeps the flagstick in place, the person tending it could have it up against the back of the cup. If the ball lags in, it could go in the cup with the flagstick still in the hole.

But aside from that, what are the actual terms used in the rule?

It is remotely possible that the flagstick could be attended and not be struck by a ball as if falls in the hole if it is held toward the back of the hole, but the chances are extremely remote. I don't know what wind would have to do with it. The ball can't come to rest in the bottom of the hole without hitting the flagstick if it is in its socket.


This is Rule 17-3 from the book:

17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant

The player's ball must not strike:

a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player's authority - see Rule 17-2.

Penalty for Breach of Rule 17-3:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes and the ball must be played as it lies. Point "a" and "b" refer to a ball hit from anywhere on the golf course. If the flagstick is attended, the ball cannot strike it or the attendee without penalty, no matter where the stroke was played from.

[loikrso]

The ball can't come to rest in the bottom of the hole without hitting the flagstick if it is in its socket.

I agree. At a minimum, it would land on the metal "collar" on the base of the flagstick.

[neeclindy]

I agree. At a minimum, it would land on the metal "collar" on the base of the flagstick.

By the way Harry, I can't read any of your posts unless I've eaten... that avatar makes my mouth water....

[Aaron757]

By the way Harry, I can't read any of your posts unless I've eaten... that avatar makes my mouth water....

I've just recently started to like key lime pie. I think I'll try to make one soon.

On another note - Fourputt - would you refresh my memory about tending the pin. What is the rule if someone asks you to tend the pin from the apron?

[ambiddetcat]

On another note - Fourputt - would you refresh my memory about tending the pin. What is the rule if someone asks you to tend the pin from the apron?

That is answered with this exchange between Harry and fourputt, I believe:

17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant

The player's ball must not strike:

a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player's authority - see Rule 17-2.

Point "a" and "b" refer to a ball hit from anywhere on the golf course. If the flagstick is attended, the ball cannot strike it or the attendee without penalty, no matter where the stroke was played from.

Although I still can't see how you should be penalized if you happen to hit a shot that should never have reached the green, but somehow did, while others (the group ahead of your group) are there and someone is tending the pin. (Seems to me I saw this scenario on another forum). What if you can't see the green and don't know someone is tending the in for someone else, whether it's your group or the group ahead of you?)

[loikrso]

Although I still can't see how you should be penalized if you happen to hit a shot that should never have reached the green, but somehow did, while others (the group ahead of your group) are there and someone is tending the pin. (Seems to me I saw this scenario on another forum). What if you can't see the green and don't know someone is tending the in for someone else, whether it's your group or the group ahead of you?)

I don't think you would be, because you did not authorize the person to tend the flag:

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player's authority - see Rule 17-2.

[ambiddetcat]

I don't think you would be, because you did not authorize the person to tend the flag:

I agree with that. But I could swear that this exact thing was brought up someplace else. Hopefully fourputt remembers that conversation. Perhaps it doesn't count if you can't see it but if you can see that it is being tended, even if on a tee box, you are authorizing it by taking a shot when you know the pin is tended?

[fiettariaps]

I agree with that. But I could swear that this exact thing was brought up someplace else. Hopefully fourputt remembers that conversation. Perhaps it doesn't count if you can't see it but if you can see that it is being tended, even if on a tee box, you are authorizing it by taking a shot when you know the pin is tended?

Smallie, if that ever happens to you, I'll take the penalty for you!