[JackTimQSR]

So if we follow this refutation, the heavens are inside each others. But in the hadith it say that there is 500 years between them, that doesn't make sense if the heavens are inside each others. Something is wrong..

It can be as simple as this; hypothetically, if a sphere is inside another sphere, the distance can be meant as the the distance between the inner shell to the outer shell.

But then, what's the unit 500 years meant? Time itself is relative (one Earth year is different than one Mars year, for example). Also one day in the afterlife is equivalent to 1000 years (Earth year). So which 500 years unit is used here?

Allahu A'lam.

[JackTimQSR]

this guy is probably just getting his attacks on Islam from wikiislam or some other anti-Islamic website with a stock of similar sillies. I don't know why Sunniforum allows people like that on here.

If I'm not mistaken, he used to have listed Hanafi as his madzhab before. Not sure if he never was a Muslim, or an apostate Muslim, waLlahu A'lam. He did post polemic questions from time to time, I guess like what you've mentioned above about the sources of his information. But at the very least he comes here and ask the questions directly to the Muslims, as in to listen to those who (supposedly) know about Islam firsthand. So I guess it's way better than to trust those anti-Islam sites completely. It just that from time to time, some of the cultural differences kick in and colored the responses and debates as well, making the real valid questions lost in in the way.

Allahu A'lam.

[Knillagrarp]

So if we follow this refutation, the heavens are inside each others. But in the hadith it say that there is 500 years between them, that doesn't make sense if the heavens are inside each others. Something is wrong..

Garett,
Sooner or later the matter will end up in Cryptic Verses of the Nobel Qur'an.
Godly injunctions about them is clear - we have to accept them as they are meant by God without trying our meager intellectual facilities to decipher their meanings.
Above discussion of spheres is related to throne of God and His sitting on it.
This brings this issue into the Cryptic Verse context.
Better thing in this context is to stop digging further.
Even worldly wise people assert that when in a hole - stop digging.
I understand human curiosity is a rather potent force - a installed by Allah (SWT).
And I shall acknowledge that in you - it is a positive thing.
This curiosity is the thing that provides you propulsion to seek knowledge - an activity that all believing men and women are exhorted to indulge in.
So you do have that advantage.
But I shall urge you to redirect you energies to some other direction, of course in things Islamic, because of the above reason. You see it does not make sense if you want fit Islam into a non-Islamic mold.
So if Allah (SWT) says do not do hair-slitting of Cryptic Verses then the best thing for us is to follow that injunction.
That is Islam - the religion that you are trying to make sense of.

See we human beings have limitations. So we commit mistakes. In fact to commit mistakes is called human. We do commit mistakes. We commit mistakes in interpreting Verses. I'll give you an example. In Surah Rahman it is said that do you think that you can get out of the bondage (gravitational pull in today's language) of the earth? And you can not get out without force. Now earlier people interpreted that man does not have force and power and strength (in the sense of La Haula Wa la Quwwata) so man can not get out of the earth's bondage. It was obviously a wrong interpretation for space travel is rather common today.

Similarly let us take the case of body of Pharaohs. Till the body of Ramses II was found it was a mystery to all the exegeses writers where the body is.

Honestly speaking the Noble Qur'an does not yield its secrets till you follow its injunctions. You might be overwhelmed to decipher the meaning of 500 km and water and throne but in my opinion this is one problem that even future science is unlikely to unravel. Of course Allah (SWT) knows better. But for now it is clear that the matter falls in Cryptic Verse category and we better avoid it.

Life is a test and students are always curious about the question pattern and they ask questions about it. But they, in any case, have to stop short of asking the actual text of questions. Islam is about believing in unseen.

I do not know whether I have invited you to Islam or not but it is my pleasure to cordially invite you to Islam.

[Imiweevierm]

APM 08279+5255 - The Largest Water Mass In The Universe (So Far)

http://www.science20.com/news_articl...e_so_far-81124


the problem is not with the quran and hadith. the problem is that science has not caught up.

Enough water to fill the Earths oceans over 100 trillion times!!!


Is that crazy or what?!

Astrophysics never ceases to amaze.

[Imiweevierm]

It doesn't matter if you understand the Hadith or not, its correct. You just have to accept it. Its the same with the Qur'an, there are some verses that are just not meant for us to understand, Allah knows best.

We dont need to get into all these technical explanations of universes and whatnot.

[Imiweevierm]

Actually liquid is left far behind. It has to be vapour only. My worry was about bonding being smashed at much lower temperatures. So what is the temperature at which hydrogen-oxygen bond will break? At temperature above that it will be meaning less to talk about water - even in vapour form.

If its vapor then its not water. I was talking about water in the liquid sense. Water vapor would just be gas.

[Knillagrarp]

If its vapor then its not water. I was talking about water in the liquid sense. Water vapor would just be gas.

When a physicist or a chemist is looking at the phase diagram of water then for him or her water, water vapour and ice are synonymous. Of course a common man will think that you have gone round the bend.

Anyway I would like to get a technical thing out of our way.

According to Wikipedia an HO-H bond of a water molecule (H-O-H) has 493.4 kJ/mol of bond-dissociation energy, and 424.4 kJ/mol is needed to cleave the remaining O-H bond.

Now if even if one O-H bond is broken then it is no more water.
So if we supply 424.4 kJ of energy then one mole of water will be dissociated - it will not be water.

Thus to dissociate 6.022×10^23 bonds we need 424.4 kJ of energy.

Or to dissociate one bond you need (424.4 divided by 6.022×10^23) kJ of energy.
That is roughly 7×10^(-19) J of energy.

Now Boltzmann's constant tells us that 1.38×10^(−23)J of energy equals one degree K.

Thus 7×10^(-19) J of energy will equal (7/1.38)×10^(23-19)K in terms of temperature.

This is 51068 K. Assuming I have not committed obvious mistakes.

This is ten times the solar surface temperature. So at the solar surface water vapour can exist.

[Imiweevierm]

When a physicist or a chemist is looking at the phase diagram of water then for him or her water, water vapour and ice are synonymous. Of course a common man will think that you have gone round the bend.

Anyway I would like to get a technical thing out of our way.

According to Wikipedia an HO-H bond of a water molecule (H-O-H) has 493.4 kJ/mol of bond-dissociation energy, and 424.4 kJ/mol is needed to cleave the remaining O-H bond.

Now if even if one O-H bond is broken then it is no more water.
So if we supply 424.4 kJ of energy then one mole of water will be dissociated - it will not be water.

Thus to dissociate 6.022×10^23 bonds we need 424.4 kJ of energy.

Or to dissociate one bond you need (424.4 divided by 6.022×10^23) kJ of energy.
That is roughly 7×10^(-19) J of energy.

Now Boltzmann's constant tells us that 1.38×10^(−23)J of energy equals one degree K.

Thus 7×10^(-19) J of energy will equal (7/1.38)×10^(23-19)K in terms of temperature.

This is 51068 K. Assuming I have not committed obvious mistakes.

This is ten times the solar surface temperature. So at the solar surface water vapour can exist.

Wow Maripat, are you a physics-guy?

Anyway, I'll go with your explanation, even though I dont understand a lot of it

[Knillagrarp]

Wow Maripat, are you a physics-guy?

Anyway, I'll go with your explanation, even though I dont understand a lot of it

Everything is taken as a complement, that everything is, and you are requested to join me in defending science in the Higgs thread. And be careful and do not take it to heart. Up, up and away!