[Lerpenoaneway]

Hey there brothers and sisters.
First Of All Eid Mubarak.

Ok now coming to the Topic.I Know this Area is Out of bounds for discussion as confirmed by a sahih hadith.
But i am not asking about the details.(so do bear me Mod bro)The Question is that i was reading an islamic history regarding sects and i came across an article that said that the

mu'tazilites were the propagators of free will.
and the Jabriyah were the propagators of predestination Hence determinists putting everything on the destiny.

However then rose a Man among the Mu'tazilites who negated their concept of freewill and took a middle path between the Mu'tazilites and Jabriyah or the jabrites.This man's name was Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari the founder of asharism

This is what i knew.But i came across a few articles that claimed that the people refuting the Mutazilites were Jabrites .And those Jabrites WERE Asharis. Is this True that ashari's WERE the Jabriyah ? Didn't they took the middle path between the two groups?
Any enlightening help on the issue would be appreciable.

[lkastonidwedsrer]

Ashariyya are not Jabriyya

that is just something ignorant modern Salafis write.

to them everyone is something bad apart from themselves.

[Talicoabilk]

It comes down to definitions.

Some Salafis use the term broadly and in a way that mainstream Sunnis don't accept at all.

[tq4F7YKs]

Ashariyya are not Jabriyya

that is just something ignorant modern Salafis write.

to them everyone is something bad apart from themselves. It comes down to definitions.

Some Salafis use the term broadly and in a way that mainstream Sunnis don't accept at all .

Thank you for your answers....May be the article i was reading was a bit biased on the ashari's part....

However i did read something on that article that i didn't know before and that was regarding the difference of opinion on predestination between the ashari and maturdi..? For example Maturdi emphasized on free will a bit More and Linked predestination to Foreknowledge of Allah to a greater detail..I don't know how to put it ...Just that > we do what we do Not because its determined BUT Allah knows about it..Any one can shed some light on it.?? And my belief is Anything that happens is by the will of Allah and it doesn't happen with out it.And the accountability is there because we don't FEEL THE FORCE.(acquiring an action)..?Any idea Regarding this would be helpful.
Thank you

[Starichok]

Bump anyone?

[shiciapsisy]

.

Thank you for your answers....May be the article i was reading was a bit biased on the ashari's part....

However i did read something on that article that i didn't know before and that was regarding the difference of opinion on predestination between the ashari and maturdi..? For example Maturdi emphasized on free will a bit More and Linked predestination to Foreknowledge of Allah to a greater detail..I don't know how to put it ...Just that > we do what we do Not because its determined BUT Allah knows about it..Any one can shed some light on it.?? And my belief is Anything that happens is by the will of Allah and it doesn't happen with out it.And the accountability is there because we don't FEEL THE FORCE.(acquiring an action)..?Any idea Regarding this would be helpful.
Thank you

brother read this thread you will find it interesting.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...-Aqeedah/page4

what is your aqeedah?

I have to say brother that personally I try to limit my personal views on this to the Athari view and what is contained within the creed of Malik and the Tahawiyya

I am not against the Asharis or Maturidis, nor am I saying that they are wrong per say, Indeed most of the later great Imams of the religion were Ashari or Maturidi in Aqeedah,

but the athari view is safer (even Ashari/Maturidi scholars have agreed this) whereas the Ashari and Maturidi views involve human thoughts over which there may be doubts.

[VomsVomaMew]

My aqeedah bro..is close to being maturdi.......The reason i was asking about predestination...is that article causing confusion...and i thought may be someone more knowledgeable be able to answer me...

but the athari view is safer (even Ashari/Maturidi scholars have agreed this) whereas the Ashari and Maturidi views involve human thoughts over which there may be doubts. are you referring to the whole of the aqeedah of ashari's or maturdi's OR pertaining to the issue of predestination only??
Plus it would be great if you enlighten me with athari view on predestination?

[Everwondopedo]

Brother the only differences between the Asharis and Maturidis that I know are these and what are implied from them (there is a 13th that this Sheikh doesn't mention but I forget what it is). You need a big brain person to help you if these don't answer your question.

Athari view of predestination is as the texts.

Ash’aris and Maturidis

Category: Aqeedah Tags: abu mansur maturidi, abul hasan ashari, Ahlus Sunnah, aqeedah, aqidah, ashari, ashariyya, Deoband, Islam, maturidi, maturidiyya, salaf, Salafi, theology, Ulama Leave a Comment

By Mawlana Faraz ibn Adam

There are 12 differences between the Māturīdi and Ash῾arī schools of aqīdah (theology).

Takwīn (bringing into being): Difference in creatingAccording to the Maturīdīs, Takwīn is from the eternal attributes (azalī) of Allah.

According to the Ash’arīs, Takwīn is not an eternal attribute (azalī) of Allah. It is originated (hādith).[1]
Speech (Kalām)According to the Maturīdīs, the speech of Allah cannot be heard.

According to the Ash’arīs, the speech of Allah can be heard.[2]
Difference in Allah being ascribed with hikmahAccording to the Maturīdīs, Allah is described with hikmah; regardless whether hikmah refers to ‘knowledge and wisdom’ or ‘perfection in creating’.

According to the Ash’arīs, if hikmah refers to ‘knowledge and wisdom’ then it is an eternal attribute. If hikmah refers to ‘perfection in creating’ then it is eventual; it occurs when Allah creates. Therefore, hikmah cannot be attributed unto Allah.[3]
Difference in the happiness (ridhā’) of Allah being connected to everythingAccording to the Maturīdīs, Allah wills obedience and disobedience for all beings, however; obedience transpires by Allah’s will, decree, predestination, happiness, love and command. Disobedience transpires by Allah’s will, decree and predestination but not by His happiness (ridhā’), love and command.

According to the Ash’arīs, the happiness (ridhā’) and love of Allah are connected to everything.[4]
Difference in the how much a person can be legally ordered (taklīf) withAccording to the Maturīdīs, a person cannot be legally ordered with more than his capacity. However, being burdened with that which cannot be borne is permissible.

According to the Ash’arīs, a person can be legally ordered with more than his capacity and can be burdened with that which cannot be borne.[5]
Difference in whether taklīf can be perceived by the intellectAccording to the Maturīdīs, some laws pertaining to legal ordering (taklīf) can be grasped by the intellect.

According to the Ash’arīs, taklīf cannot be understood by the intellect. Taklīf can only be understood through revelation (wahy).[6]
Difference with regards to fortune (sa’ādah) and wretchedness (shaqāwah)According to the Maturīdīs, a wretched person can eventually be fortunate. A fortunate person can turn out to be wretched.

According to the Ash’arīs, fortune and wretchedness are only considered at the time of death.[7]
Can disbelief (kufr) be pardonedAccording to the Maturīdīs, it is rationally impermissible for disbelief to be pardoned.

According to the Ash’arīs, it is rationally permissible for disbelief to be forgiven but textually it is impermissible.[8]
Difference with regards to the eternal abode in the HereafterAccording to the Maturīdīs, it is rationally and textually impermissible for the believers to abide eternally in hellfire and for the disbelievers to abide in paradise.

According to the Ash’arīs, it is rationally permissible and textually impermissible for the believers to abide eternally in hellfire and for the disbelievers to abide in paradise.[9]
Difference with regards to the name (ism) and that which the name refers to (musammā) According to the Maturīdīs, the name and the entity named with that name (ism (اسم) and musammā (مسمى)) are one.

According to the Ash’arīs, the name and the entity named with that name (the ism (اسم) and the musammā )(مسمى) could be different.[10]
Does a prophet have to be a maleAccording to the Maturīdīs, being a male is a condition for Prophethood.

According to the Ash’arīs, being a male is not a condition for Prophethood.[11]
Difference with regards to what the action of a person is termed asAccording to the Maturīdīs, the action (fi῾l) of a person is called acquisition (كسب) and not creation. The action of Allah (fi῾l) is called creation (khalq) and not acquisition. Linguistically, both actions can be called fi῾l.

According to the Ash’arīs, fi῾l refers to the action of Allah bringing into existence. The action of acquisition by a person is called action (f῾il) figuratively.[12]

The 12 differences quoted above are of a technical nature. Despite the deep understanding and major implications, there was tolerance and understanding of one another. Nevertheless, the Maturīdī and Aha’arī’s are genuine and authentic schools of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa ’l-Jamā’ah. http://www.friendsofdeoband.com/?p=1149

[mikaelluioy]

Jazakallah khair brother it really does answer my questions .....The differences are well organized.... i thank you for the post..

However i think you forgot to answer my other question
can you give a brief view on predestination according to the athari aqeedah...Just a simple overview.... so that i am able to differentiate it from the ashari's or maturdi's or if you put it like that to see what is the stance of all aqeedah's on this aspect that is predestination?..
Regards and thanks once again.