[lidya-sggf]

I found something very interesting in a link that was posted here, and felt it deserved more attention/discussion. Here's a portion of it:

Has anyone followed the leptin results? Leptin is an amino acid that is produced in the body’s fat cells. Leptin is often called the obese gene because as leptin increases your body fat increases as well. However, studies have shown that decreasing leptin will decrease fat, but leptin, as a weight loss drug has not been found as effective in humans as it has in mice. Barring the weight loss drug ‘potential’ aspects of leptin, the actions of leptin may be important to hCG weight loss because leptin plays a part in regulating hunger, food intake and energy expenditure. Leptin acts on the brain stem, which acts on serotonin, a hormone that controls appetite and mood.
An interesting point concerning leptin deals with how it can affect hCG weight loss; as the hCG diet protocol decreases fat, leptin levels fall, thus causing an increase in cravings. Note that Dr. Simeons’ protocol, as written in Pounds and Inches, call for a break in the hCG diet protocol because the hCG hormone is thought to build immunity. Could in fact it be the effects of leptin vs. the hCG hormone? Leptin and Grehlin are being studied in relation to weight loss and developing the ultimate diet pill. Complicated stuff, but basically grehlin is associated with hunger and leptin is associated with feeling full. If your leptin levels are low you feel like you can't get enough to eat- you never feel satiated.

Note that leptin is produced in the fat cells and that as the Hcg diet decreases fat, leptin levels fall. From reading the boards I've noticed there is a wide range of hunger when people start P3- some are not hungry at all, some have normal hunger, and some feel like they can't get enough to eat even though they are eating large quantities of food (I fall into that category). This information would explain that- if your leptin levels are very low (and for some of us they might have been low even to start with), you brain never gives you the signal that you're full and you just keep eating.

Current medical knowledge seems to indicate that immunity to Hcg is less and less of an issue, and that 6 wks off is plenty of time to become sensitive to it again. Part of that might be due to improvements in manufacturing, so that we are getting better quality Hcg. So if that is true, do we really need to stop after 40 injections, or take longer breaks after each round?

Perhaps, as is suggested here, immunity was not the only factor in the equation- even though the science behind it wasn't quite there yet. For those who were not developing immunity, why would Dr. S. make them stop their round? Perhaps when they did not, he saw problems further down the road? And saw the same problems when the length of breaks did not increase between rounds? He must have had some reason behind increasing the break time, so I'm assuming he saw problems when patients didn't do this. But maybe he attributed those problems to immunity, when they were really associated with grehlin and leptin levels?

We've had a lot of people who do fine the first round, have more hunger the 2nd, and hunger seems to get more and more unmanageable as time goes on. One doctor even told his patient that the protocol no longer works after 3 rounds. Perhaps the hunger issue is because we have not allowed enough time for leptin levels to normalize? Or do they resist normalizing in this day and age because of all the chemicals, etc., that we've ingested?

So if this is an issue, what do we do about it? Unfortunately, I'm not sure science has quite made that leap yet. There are some OTC leptin supplements, and I'm tempted to try one to see if that helps my hunger in P3 and P4. For those who have low levels of serotonin and/or certain amino acids, I'm guessing this only magnifies the problem. One idea is to see if you might benefit from some supplements like St. John's Wort, or 5-HTP. The book, "The Mood Cure", has questionnaires to help you determine if you have amino acid deficiencies.

For some people it might just take a little longer for those levels to normalize- in which case something like green tea might be enough of an appetite suppressant to hold you over until your body can correct the problem.

[rhybrisee]

Very interesting Margie...I actually have been doing alot of research on this. One place i found lots of info is wellnessresources.com...Byron Richards is the country's leading expert on leptin. I was thinking about ordering his book.

[oplapofffe]

Part of the problem is actually leptin resistance. people who are overweight and particularly obese have loads of leptin, they just can't use it properly, much like insulin resistance. Effectively your cells can't "hear" the leptin and so your body still thinks it's hungry.

IIRC they aren't totally sure what causes leptin resistance, fructose and carbs are most often mentioned, but I think it would be interesting to see what connections there are to hcg!

[SweetCaroline]

Part of the problem is actually leptin resistance. people who are overweight and particularly obese have loads of leptin, they just can't use it properly, much like insulin resistance. Effectively your cells can't "hear" the leptin and so your body still thinks it's hungry. very true- i should have added that. they say that eating a better diet (fewer carbs, less processed food, etc.) helps that, but mine hasn't improved even after almost 2 yrs of clean eating.

they are playing around with some medications for leptin resistance- ones used for diabetes.

[iklostardinn]

Part of the problem is actually leptin resistance. people who are overweight and particularly obese have loads of leptin, they just can't use it properly, much like insulin resistance. Effectively your cells can't "hear" the leptin and so your body still thinks it's hungry. ...

This is a very interesting topic. FOR ME I know that the ability for my body to "hear the leptin" per the above article is related to my wheat intake. I can eat a double Whopper, for instance, and not feel that "full" or even "satisfied" feeling. But if I take the same sandwich and remove the bread, I feel very "full" after eating the insides. A nutritionist helped me discover this a couple of decades ago. It was an amazing discovery, that "full" feeling because all my life up to that point I ate bread at every meal! NEVER knew what "FULL" felt like. Only that STUFFED feeling after overindulging at Thanksgiving or an "all you can eat buffet." I wonder if my "wheat allergy" as that nutritionist called it is what "turns off" the leptin receptors. VERY interesting!

It's always been difficult for me to avoid wheat completely because I have seemed to "crave" bread since a small child. (I know, you build a resistance or allergy to what you eat a lot of ... and you seem to crave it at the same time.) I'm looking forward to trying some of the nut flours to make my bread in the future so see how this affects my "full button."

Lately, I've thought some of my more sudden weight gains were due to gluten intolerance, and have sort of ignored what I knew about the "wheat vs full" thing, but maybe I have both situations going on. Was also looking to avoiding gluten well after P3 to see how that affects me as well. Since both are related to wheat it will be hard to separate them to see which is the biggest problem. Guess it doesn't really matter if avoiding wheat completely can keep me thin (when I get there).

[SAUNDERSAN]

very true- i should have added that. they say that eating a better diet (fewer carbs, less processed food, etc.) helps that, but mine hasn't improved even after almost 2 yrs of clean eating.

they are playing around with some medications for leptin resistance- ones used for diabetes.

there was a person from the LC boards who used herself as a guinea pig (along with an Endo) for Leptin Resistance. she had a blood test for Leptin, to be good your results have to be under 10, this person was about 3x that. She and her endo started her on symlin (the drug you were mentioning) and slowly tireated up. after a few months the serum test showed she had gotten rid of the leptin resistance but she couldn't stablize her weight. she has a yahoo group that is pretty quiet right now but the story is on there.

Ken Holtorff also talks about Leptin Resistance and RT3 problems as the factors behind many weight problems and uses a combo of Slow Release T3 and metformin for people whose weight problem is not solved by reducing the RT3 alone.

[Poll Pitt]

Lately, I've thought some of my more sudden weight gains were due to gluten intolerance, and have sort of ignored what I knew about the "wheat vs full" thing, but maybe I have both situations going on. Was also looking to avoiding gluten well after P3 to see how that affects me as well. Since both are related to wheat it will be hard to separate them to see which is the biggest problem. Guess it doesn't really matter if avoiding wheat completely can keep me thin (when I get there).

I know I gained my weight in 10lb bursts, literally would gain 10lbs over a weekend and then stablize for a while. I am gluten intolerant and suspect that the weight gain, which reared it's head while I was being diagnosed with gluten intolerance, had something to do with the gluten as well as thyroid and leptin.

btw, if you have a "wheat allergy" it would most likely manifest as a histamine reaction within minutes of consumption, gluten intolerance on the other hand can manifest as a variety of reactions and start anywhere from 30 minutes to up to 48 hours after consumption. If you really have a wheat allergy you can eat barley and rye products, if it's gluten intolerance you really can't have any of those.

[CGH1KZzy]

I know I gained my weight in 10lb bursts, literally would gain 10lbs over a weekend and then stablize for a while. I am gluten intolerant and suspect that the weight gain, which reared it's head while I was being diagnosed with gluten intolerance, had something to do with the gluten as well as thyroid and leptin.

btw, if you have a "wheat allergy" it would most likely manifest as a histamine reaction within minutes of consumption, gluten intolerance on the other hand can manifest as a variety of reactions and start anywhere from 30 minutes to up to 48 hours after consumption. If you really have a wheat allergy you can eat barley and rye products, if it's gluten intolerance you really can't have any of those.

Good to know. 20 years ago I'm sure the nutritionist didn't have any real info to go on except that I eliminated everything (it seemed) from my diet for 2 weeks, and when I added the wheat this is was the reaction. I call it an "allergy" just to try to explain it. The nutritionist just suggested I avoid wheat. At that time we found my aversion to corn as well. We were looking to see what was causing my joints to ache (the corn). In that same decade I took a blood test for allergies and found 52 different foods (include many spices) did not agree with me in some way, but of course the blood test doesn't tell you how they will manifest. Gluten and whey I know were on that list. I put that "results" document away and pretty much gave up trying to eliminate foods after that ... 52 foods is a big number!... until the joint pain got so bad I couldn't NOT avoid corn at all costs. Guess I should have another of those tests by now. I know there could be more (or less) by now.

I'm pretty sure of the gluten problem. Have never tried purely rye bread (it usually also has wheat) to see if it turns off the "full button." If so, that would be a manifestation of the gluten problem, wouldn't it? I won't know for sure until I get to Phase 4 and can test it out.

[Breeriacoirl]

Good to know. 20 years ago I'm sure the nutritionist didn't have any real info to go on except that I eliminated everything (it seemed) from my diet for 2 weeks, and when I added the wheat this is was the reaction. I call it an "allergy" just to try to explain it. The nutritionist just suggested I avoid wheat. At that time we found my aversion to corn as well. We were looking to see what was causing my joints to ache (the corn). In that same decade I took a blood test for allergies and found 52 different foods (include many spices) did not agree with me in some way, but of course the blood test doesn't tell you how they will manifest. Gluten and whey I know were on that list. I put that "results" document away and pretty much gave up trying to eliminate foods after that ... 52 foods is a big number!... until the joint pain got so bad I couldn't NOT avoid corn at all costs. Guess I should have another of those tests by now. I know there could be more (or less) by now.

I'm pretty sure of the gluten problem. Have never tried purely rye bread (it usually also has wheat) to see if it turns off the "full button." If so, that would be a manifestation of the gluten problem, wouldn't it? I won't know for sure until I get to Phase 4 and can test it out.

you are right, they probably didn't know 20 years ago! heck,they barely know now!

you could try barley in P4 as it's easier to get in pure form, that would at least help identify if it were gluten intolerance vs wheat allergy.

[invasuant]

so did a bit of paperwork avoidance and googled hcg and leptin, found this little tidbit that supports mgsondance's thinking about the breaks:
Dr Simeons created his diet based on 1950s knowledge about human physiology. The discovery of the master fat hormone, leptin, in 1994 substantiates his thinking. Leptin and HCG both work by sending signals throug brain receptors in the hypothalamus. Lab reasearch with experimental animals is just now starting to show how these two hormones interact to regulate fat metabolism.

Teh carb connection in this scenario involves insulin, which also has a close interaction with leptin. If either one of these hormones gets out of balance, the other one willl too. Consuming excess carbs will make you fat more quickly than will any other kind of food. These hormones work together to make it so. This iwhy eating carbs during the three week post HCG phase ruins your newly acquired metabolism

Dr Dennis Clark

[CymnMaync]

This is why eating carbs during the three week post HCG phase ruins your newly acquired metabolism i believe that's far too "black and white" of a conclusion to be true, but the theory behind it is interesting.

i do know there are some clinics that don't do P3 at all, but have their patients increase fat and calories a little at a time, although with helthy carbs. i can't imagine that none of their patients stabilize- that would not lead to much repeat business- although i also wouldn't doubt that the likelihood of stabilizing is higher if you stick to P3 foods. i also imagine that they limit carb intake to healthy carbs- i don't think any of them let people eat junk food, processed crap, deserts, etc.

it also doesn't explain what would magically change after the 3 wks of PT. it seems like eating carbs in P4 would cause the same problem, unless he's figuring that your body is more used to your weight being it's "normal" at that point. but it does also support what we tend to see on the forum- that many people can not go back to eating a lot of carbs without gaining weight back.

kaleein- it may be that the carbs were just not filling you up- that you needed the fat to do so. yet that is the frustrating part of trying to figure out what is going on with me. when i did my interruption i had breakfast with some friends, and had the low-carb option- which was 3 eggs, 2 bacon and 2 sausage (i chose the turkey, which had no additives). i ate that and i was hungry. and i was still hungry, an hour later. for me it generally takes about 90' before i feel full. so it's not that it doesn't happen, but it's extremely delayed. and in the meantime it's very difficult for me to not eat. yet if i go ahead and more, then i feel overly full later on. this was a daily pattern for me before i started to lose. i was extremely hungry, especially in the evening. and even if i ate healthy foods, i tended to keep eating until i was full (i guess that's the instinct that we're born with, after all). then i'd stop, and about an hour later i'd feel sick from having eaten so much.

my hunger is so extreme when i stop hcg that i'm thinking of having another conversation with my doc and trying one of the medications.

[Klavalala]

Don't waste your time on those supplements that are supposed to help leptin levels, Margie. I've tried them all and they don't work. (

[DuePew]

what would you suggest for my appetite? it's the worst at night, so taking something like a green tea capsule doesn't really help because i can only take that in the morning (or it keeps me up). i literally lie in bed and think about food.... i think it's gotten worse the longer i've done the protocol so i'm pretty sure it has to do with the fat i've lost. i wonder if you're leptin resistant, as opposed to having low levels? if you're leptin resistant they wouldn't help.

[scewLacysmazy]

Yes I'm leptin resistant. So maybe that does make a difference. Why don't you just EAT, girl? Eat some fats. Cocoa crack in particular is very satisfying and actually helps with weight stabilization.

[RarensussyRen]

i just read something on line that said most leptin supplements do not contain leptin it's a hormone that you can only take by prescription- maybe that's the problem...

[pedFlicle]

Yes I'm leptin resistant. So maybe that does make a difference. Why don't you just EAT, girl? Eat some fats. Cocoa crack in particular is very satisfying and actually helps with weight stabilization.

did you see what happened on my 4 and 1/2 day interruption? (taken after 23 days)- i gained 10 pounds only eating P3 foods! yeah, i ate a lot, but nothing that wasn't P3.

that's the problem- i can eat, i just never get full.

[AntonioMQ]

But have you tried some cocoa crack at night, Margie? There is something very filling and satisfying about it. Really.

I saw what you said you gained. You had to have been eating something you're allergic to.

[addisonnicogel]

what do you think about all this leptin stuff, colleen? and how did you decide you were leptin resistance, vs. having low leptin levels?

[thakitt]

I read a book about it and since I'm resistant to ALL my hormones, I figured I was resistant to it too not actually low. I could be wrong. But I was thrilled about a new supplement LIfe Extension had that claimed to have you lose 10 pounds a month by normalizing your leptin levels. I took it for 6 mos and it didn't do a thing. I do think leptin has a lot to do with our issues though.

[zdoppiklonikaa]

I read a book about it and since I'm resistant to ALL my hormones, I figured I was resistant to it too not actually low. I could be wrong. But I was thrilled about a new supplement LIfe Extension had that claimed to have you lose 10 pounds a month by normalizing your leptin levels. I took it for 6 mos and it didn't do a thing. I do think leptin has a lot to do with our issues though.

i assume that was pre-hcg? do you think that perhaps it didn't help because your metabolism was so screwed up??