[HedoShoodovex]

Joe,

I could not respond to your post in the other thread, but I did want to say I believe you misunderstood if you thought I was in any way putting down getting a registered dog. I did not intend to. I am very well versed in APBT bloodlines and do know good dogs when I see them. I know the dog game bred dog I had before this one was the real deal, papers were available but since the dog was a pet served no purpose for me personally. The dog I have now is in some way even more impressive as far as drive, attitude, athleticism, and stamina but as for the gameness, wouldn't want to find out. As for his dudley nose, combined with his much leaner body type and smaller waistline just leads me to guess more toward APBT in his lineage than AST. It is just my educated guess but of course since the working APBT's of the past were created from a mixture of dogs for the most part, I think many registered dogs of the best lines could probably go back far enough and find some AB, OEB, and Terrier lineage in there somewhere. The notion of a pure bred APBT without game testing in some ways just seems like an oxymoron to me, and focusing on registry papers seems counter to the working nature of the dogs. I would also like to remind people that Lou Colby bred a dog that killed his nephew. Not to take away from all the great dogs he produced but it does demonstrate the regardless of the bloodline, there are good and bad dogs.

[JessiPollo]

One thing about dogs from unknown origin and pedigree is that it's ALWAYS a coin toss.
The best dog I've ever owned was from unknown origin and pedigree ... but he was a genetic soup sandwich and I lost him to cancer just before he turned 5 years old.
I didn't want to go through that heartbreak again and chose to get a carefully researched pup from a known and proven healthy bloodline. Still as with any pup ... ya never know how they will turn out. So far so good ... except he eats shoes LOL

Purebred dogs with no history of cancer get cancer to, just sayin

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[Mypepraipse]

Joe,

I could not respond to your post in the other thread, but I did want to say I believe you misunderstood if you thought I was in any way putting down getting a registered dog. I did not intend to. I am very well versed in APBT bloodlines and do know good dogs when I see them. I know the dog game bred dog I had before this one was the real deal, papers were available but since the dog was a pet served no purpose for me personally. The dog I have now is in some way even more impressive as far as drive, attitude, athleticism, and stamina but as for the gameness, wouldn't want to find out. As for his dudley nose, combined with his much leaner body type and smaller waistline just leads me to guess more toward APBT in his lineage than AST. It is just my educated guess but of course since the working APBT's of the past were created from a mixture of dogs for the most part, I think many registered dogs of the best lines could probably go back far enough and find some AB, OEB, and Terrier lineage in there somewhere. The notion of a pure bred APBT without game testing in some ways just seems like an oxymoron to me, and focusing on registry papers seems counter to the working nature of the dogs. I would also like to remind people that Lou Colby bred a dog that killed his nephew. Not to take away from all the great dogs he produced but it does demonstrate the regardless of the bloodline, there are good and bad dogs.

This^^^

[JessiPollo]

Wow, that's nuts

Yeah, its shelters like that what make people not want to adopt.

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[Adimos]

Yeah, its shelters like that what make people not want to adopt.

Seriously. Average cost of a dog around here is anywhere from $50-$100

[HedoShoodovex]

BTW I saw a dog the other day that was registered as an APBT and it was a blue male that weighed 110 lbs. Looked AmBully all the way to me but it is one reason why I don't care about papers too much. On the other hand that Colby dog you have looks like the real deal to me whether you have papers or not. Sometimes you can see quality. My dad could look at a race horse and tell you if it can run or not. Never needed to see a pedigree. Secretariat never produced any champion offspring.

[Blolover11]

The notion of a pure bred APBT without game testing in some ways just seems like an oxymoron to me, and focusing on registry papers seems counter to the working nature of the dogs. I would also like to remind people that Lou Colby bred a dog that killed his nephew. Not to take away from all the great dogs he produced but it does demonstrate the regardless of the bloodline, there are good and bad dogs.

No one is making a issue or distinction concerning papers except you, the OP of this thread and maybe a couple of others. Don't kid yourself for a minute to think that I don't know AND intimately understand that papers don't make the dog OR a good dog is where you find it. As far as misunderstanding your posts ... I understand them completely.

Now moving on ... you need to get your facts straight before spouting of about a respected man such as Lou Colby, who's shoes you could never walk in. The incident you speak of happened LOOOooong before Lou Colby was even born. The incident happened at his father's home when his father, John P Colby, lived on Franklin Street. John P Colby's sister was visiting with her child (Mr Colby's nephew). The child left unattended ... wandered into one of the kennels out back and was killed. There was no witness to the incident and no one knows how it happened or what caused it inside the supposed secure kennel. And that was just over a hundred years ago.

[illignocearia]

Seriously. Average cost of a dog around here is anywhere from $50-$100

Yes I know. I know this is off topic, but I am looking for the link for you. Some of them they don't list prices, for good reason. Give me a few minutes and you can see for yourself.

[kaiayout]

lol I wish shelter dogs cost 150 here. Try $500-$650 around here.

wow thats unreal!!!!!!!! in ny the most expensive puppy or dog from shelter or animal rescue is AT MOST $250 (only seen 1-2 that high) if you go to the web site for yourspca.org its the spca by my house it has the prices...!!!!! and the buffalo animal shelter is the other place to get strays and puppies a puppy with 1st round of shots and fixed its $180.... some times the spca runs "specials" when they are full for any dog over 5yrs old is free

[Kristoferson]

yea here they go for 80-400 depending on the shelter/rescue (sometimes I think they want to keep the dogs at the rescues lol)

[HedoShoodovex]

One thing about dogs from unknown origin and pedigree is that it's ALWAYS a coin toss.
The best dog I've ever owned was from unknown origin and pedigree ... but he was a genetic soup sandwich and I lost him to cancer just before he turned 5 years old.
I didn't want to go through that heartbreak again and chose to get a carefully researched pup from a known and proven healthy bloodline. Still as with any pup ... ya never know how they will turn out. So far so good ... except he eats shoes LOL

Joe I am sorry for your loss but I do not think loosing a dog to cancer is in any way related to the fact that he was a genetic soup sandwich as you put it. Cancer can occur due to exposure to toxins, genetic mutation, and occurs randomly throughout almost all sample populations. If anything a varied gene pool tends to make for healthier animals. The purer a bloodline the more inbreeding is required and therefore a higher risk of genetic anomalies. I don't think there is any proof that pure bred dogs are healthier than mixed breed dogs. I know my mom had a champion bloodline giant schnauzer and a rescue giant schnauzer. The AKC registered dog, bit people, seemed crazy and died at 6 years old, the rescue dog although not as pretty live a long and healthy life and had a superior disposition. It is just one case but I do believe if you health tested a large group of registered dogs and unregistered dogs, I sincerely doubt you would find any evidence that the pure bred dogs are healthier.

Pit bulls in general are very healthy dogs and live a relatively long time. Part of this is because they were not bred for conformation traits. Color, markings, size etc were not important. What we have wound up with is incredibly athletic, fit, smart, driven dogs who can perform and come in a variety of builds, colors, and sizes. As soon as you start inbreeding to get specific narrower conformation standards of color, size etc, you actually increase the chances for health issues. It is why I don't like blue dogs, not because I don't like the color, but because they are for the most part specifically bred by breeders for that color, or head size etc, which goes against the history of the breed and IMO what sets the APBT apart from most other recognized dog breeds.

[P3bWjm1j]

Just because a dog is registered doesn't necesarily make it better... there are just as many crap bred registered dogs as there are mutts. Difference is that if you educate yourself on how to discern what lines and reputable breeder are going to work with you, you will be better able to stack the deck in favor of what you are looking for in a dog. Actually I believe same applies with evaluating temperament and structure of shelter dogs as well.

My parent's currently have a nicely bred Border Collie registered with the ABCA. He's got NOTHING on the ranch bred, unpapered BC I grew up with. Don't get me wrong, he's a good sweet dog that could be tip top and trial well on sheep with the right handler and he is perfect (i.e. nice and forgiving) for what my parent's need. I myself prefer a harder, more balls to the wall in drive dog... hard enough to work cattle with and give me everything with zest. Now would I go pick up an unpapered ranch bred BC now that I know more about breeding, health testing, etc.? Oh hell no, I have a very specific list of what I want from a breeder of working herding dogs. Frankly given my own breed preferences I'm not sure I'll go BC again (though I do adore the breed) ever at all, but the point is I know how to pick a dog that works for me.

Now why wouldn't go I go pick up one of the hundreds of shelter BC's that go through the local shelters/rescues here each year? Well... while I could get decent work out of nearly all of them, I wouldn't go that route because of 1. I want to know the health history and health tested lineage, 2. I want a proven working/performance history with proven throwing of working/performance dogs in the lineage, and 3. I want a proven history of good temperament. Sure I could weed through all the crap and hope I get what I'm looking for, but why put myself through that cost and heartache when I could do it right the first time??? Or at least stack the deck more in favor...
I have helped a family friend pick out a shelter BC and while he's an "okay" pet for her situation, it kinda makes me sick that they would put a dog of that poor temperament on the adoption floor at all... At least he's not a danger to society, but he still has piss poor temperament...

I have two dogs that are the same mix in different ratios, from totally different backgrounds.
Lily cost $23.17 to adopt. It was the best money I have ever spent. She is excellent in temperament and build for what she was bred for (distance mushing) and I've done a large variety of things with her and will continue to do so until its time to retire her to snotty old spoiled lady status. I had to do a TON of socialization and training and I've made mistakes as we all do with our first dogs. She's probably the most perfect first dog I could have chosen for myself. She would not have made a good house pet and would have been bounced around a lot by now if I hadn't snatched her up right as she came available. I love her and she is perfect for me, but she'd be way too much dog for a lot of people.

Scout was free. I am her third home. She was born into a rescue situation and adopted by a nice lady from a shelter for like $600. Good gawd, I can't imagine paying that much for a shit bred dog born from hoarding bust dogs into rescue... especially with how unsound the majority of dogs from that population were. IMO it is UNETHICAL and DISGUSTING that any rescue could charge that much for a dog that badly bred. That action is in my eyes no better than your average registered byb breeder that peddles nervebags in the local paper.
My free dog has cost waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than Lily has. She's nowhere near as hardy and healthy... despite them being basically the same working mix (though Scout is 75/25 and Lily is 50/50). IMO this illustrates very clearly just how important good, proven stock is!
I adore Scout, it was the right decision to take her (it was me or the shelter), and I've learned inordinate amounts from living and working with her. Again she would be too much dog for most people, though I consider her extremely laid back and easy peasy. I took her because I knew she was stable under all her issues and I had worked with her before and knew her intelligence. In return she would literally do anything for me. Anything. Apparently we needed each other. Damn dog picked me the second she met me... I turned her down like three or four times before I finally took her.

That said, its extremely frustrating to not have a dog with the correct breeding and drives for the sports I would like to be more heavily involved in. I won't say never, but I highly doubt I will do the rescue thing again. I want and need a well bred working dog. Hopefully sooner rather than later I will be able to acquire a well bred Malinois pup to raise for that. I'm just one of those people who can't not do anything with their dogs and I don't think I'd be happy with a lazy couch potato at all. While I will probably stick with working shepherds, I would like to also always have at least one sled dog. I always swore I'd never get a purebred Siberian, but frankly I kinda already got my breeder picked out for when the girls pass years down the line. I'm leaning toward a breeder pup for a variety of reasons, partly being its really hard to find a rescue that is okay with cats and frankly I'm just done fixing and living with dogs that have tons of baggage from previous owners.

I'm not sure I'll ever get an APBT, though I do love them, fuzzbuckets just fit me better. However if I did, I would go to a breeder that did sport/work with their breeding stock and health tested, etc. I actually know exactly whom I would talk to.

[Quiniacab]

Lets stay on topic and not take things personal and of topic here.

Personally I could careless about registration. For me I like an athlete and many sports let any Dog compete regardless of registry, linage. For me I am not into conformation if I was I would care for papers. In the end for me if a Dog could show it its great at its sport that its an awesome dog.
Now its it interesting to know ancestry of course but I am just as good with handwritten records as with registry on that. I feel the same way when it comes to my own personal ancestry as well.

[Avoireeideree]

There are always diamonds in the rough, but if you have specific standards when it comes to appearance and temperament, a purebred is the way to go for a reason.

A mutt is a crap shoot, purebreds can be too, but generally purebreds are purebreds because they have a "type", even lines within a breed have a "type". You can get a great mutt, I think I had a great mutt, but I was just lucky. When I picked her up at 6 weeks old who knew what I was going to end up with.

If/when I get another dog it will be a purebred, because now that I've been around the block a bit, I know what I want in a dog, and I plan on purchasing a dog in a specific breed, from specific lines to make my chances of getting everything I want higher. Could I get it in a mutt? Yes, but it could be one in a million chances.

It's not that mutts aren't better, or are better. It's about what you want as others have said. I could have cared less what my mutts turned out to be, just so happens they both have/had their own shining qualities that have taught me a lot. But now with that knowledge I know what I want, and I'm not about to take another crap shoot.

Cancer is hereditary, but environment can obviously play a role as well. Purchasing a dog from lines where there isn't cancer is not a guarantee, but your chances are better than someone who purchases a dog from unknown lineage.

If you want a dog to show in the breed ring, well than lineage and papers are definitely important.

If you want a dog to sit on the couch with you and chill out pool side, papers are irrelevant.

In the eye of the beholder. Everyones' opinions will be different because what they want/need in a dog is, ain't nothing wrong with that!

[Natashasuw]

I don't think one is superior over the other, in regards to mutts vs purebreds. I think it depends on what you want in a dog, and what you don't want in a dog.

Obviously, if you want to show conformation, you MUST have a registered purebred... but I've seen some registered purebreds with FAR worse conformation than a mutt dog!

Some people want a registered purebred just as a pet, because they want the comfort of knowing their dog's genetic history and the dogs behind it. Some people don't care about that.

I don't understand why one group of people needs to try to make the other feel inferior... Some people like mutts. Some people like purebreds. Some people just like a good dog, no matter what its background is.

[Qxkmsxsx]

Registration papers don't make a superior dog. As we all know you can get dogs out of the shelters that are just wonderful and perfect (I have two myself). What makes a "superior" dog to me is responsible and ethical breeding. It all depends on what you want the dog for - but if you're going for registered what matters the most to me is finding someone who temperament and health tests. Proving the line either through conformation or competition is also important.

K9Love said it best though, "If you want a dog to show in the breed ring, well than lineage and papers are definitely important. If you want a dog to sit on the couch with you and chill out pool side, papers are irrelevant.
In the eye of the beholder. Everyones' opinions will be different because what they want/need in a dog is, ain't nothing wrong with that!"

[Abraham]

What does paperes, or pedigree have to do with anything? Look at people, siblings. You can have one sibling that excells in pretty much everything, and another one is not so bright.

I had two QHs, full sisters, well bred. First one, beautiful, stunning mover, healthy as could be, super easy to train, etc.
The next one, practically hit the ground sick. Had pretty much everything go wrong with her that could. Fractures, mystery illnesses, bone chips, needed surgeries, allergic to everything, etc.

So just because a dog has a good pedigree, doesn't mean it's going to be superior to anything. Yet a Mystery Mutt could be the worlds best dog.

[Zhgrlpil]

Wow you talk about a cluster fuck! Glad I got in early lol

[VIDEOHITE]

Registration itself does nothing to prove a dog's ability, other than give you the ability to compete and show under some registries, and title your dog easier.

It's not the pedigree that makes the dog, it's the dogs behind it that do.

I've met mutts of all sorts at the shelter, highly unstable, to rock solid steady. Couch potato, to energy out the rear end. Dogs that would make good house pets, to dogs that would make superb sporting dogs.

One could argue the couch potato is the superior dog because he does better in a home setting. And others would say the sporting dog for his physical abilities and determinations.
What a person considers "Superior" will vary between each individual.

The only real difference I see is known heritage (excluding those who lie about lineage) and those with unknown heritage. (there's going to be the physical variability in the likes of course, but just in general)

[baskentt]

My last two dogs were ambull x amstaff. I couldn't have asked for more. They were the best dogs I ever had. They set the bar and I hope my little pup can live up to their standards.

To be fair to all dogs purebred and not. Having chemistry with master helps. As well as master having time to spend with dog.

When I trained Thor and Loki RIP I had no g/f, no kids and a great work at home business, I spent every minute of the day with them. I don't know if this is why they were so awesome but I think the time spent was quality and paid large dividends for the rest of their lives and all of my time with them was pure joy and I will always treasure it.