[CamVideoQl]

Just a bit of info before I go on : I've been training dogs in basic obedience and house hold manners for 6 years. I've been actively involved in SAR and Schutzhund for a while as well. I've owned a few Pit Bulls and fostered many. I am a huge advocate of the breed and try to educate myself as much as possible as the years go on. There is still so much I do not understand but take any opportunity I can to learn more.

So, today I pick up a 4 month old pit bull puppy from a client who saw the dog get hit by a car on a major freeway 2 months ago. She rescued the dog, got him back to health and although she has been against pit bulls he has won her heart over..(BIG SURPISE RIGHT) and now she has decided to keep him

Anyway, the area of town this pup was found is known for holding dog fights and selling "game bred dogs". The pups ears are cut so short and his head is very small - like WEIRD looking small. He is a little longer it seems but maybe because he is leaner.

The client has agreed to keep him because he is great with her and the kids so far. She just wants to make sure she is taking all the right steps to have this puppy be the best possible. The only thing she said bothers her about him is the way he plays. I thought she just wasn't use to the "pit bull type play" but since I've had him here for the past few hours it is apparent he is NOT playing.

I've NEVER - in 6 years of training - seen a 4 month old puppy get so aggressive towards another dog. If I put him outside with the others he is fine - totally ignores them - but the SECOND one tries to sniff him or "challenge" him he goes into straight red zone. This dog literally weighs less than 20 lbs and is doing this to the older, bigger dogs. He has no fear when it comes to them. He walks around people very confident like but when he is around dogs or high social situations he kind of goes into anxiety mode until a dog brushes him then it's ALL CONFIDENCE.

So , my question is this. We have him at a young age and I can keep him for training as long as I need him. I know this dog is not going to be one that will grow up to love animals - just doesn't seem genetically possible but what is too much? How do I decide this dog can be awesome with people but will never be a dog-dog. The client understands the pit bull after a bit of research and knows their tendency to have a little animal aggression but since I've not personally seen it THIS young I don't know how to correct it. Do I let him be around older dogs who will put him in his place or do I keep him away from dogs all together. I do not want to treat this like I would a lab who is "testing the waters" with other dogs but I also dont want to treat it like he just pee'd on the floor.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. This lady is really stepping out of her comfort zone. I want to make sure I do the best I can for her and Sebastian (the puppy).

[hernkingAnank]

Personally, I'd keep him separated... I've not seen it with my own eyes, but i've heard tell of pups eight weeks old fighting, and sometimes killing their littermates.

[Assunkkensatt]

Sounds like a nice pup. Give up on trying to train him against his genetics and if they want to keep him train them on how to contain and control DA-keep him away from other dogs.

[hernkingAnank]

You MAY be able to teach him to ignore other dogs, or at least not act like a nut whenever he sees one. But as far as playing and being around other dogs, or other animals in general for that matter, I wouldn't suggest it.

[ffdfriendforurr]

I agree with just keeping him seperate, as well as working on the 'watch me' and 'leave it' commands with him. If hes just not going to get along with other dogs trying to atleast make him 'ignore' them when they are present is the next best thing.
I think those commands would help with his anxiety you mentioned as well. Getting his focus on you when hes anxious and then doing basic obediance things would help build confidence as well as keep him focused on you as opposed to the other dog.
Just my thoughts though. He looks adorable from the pic small head short ears and all

[Assunkkensatt]

Does his family have other dogs? Cats? Leave it will help and I'd only use positives here (for once hah) because really he's doing what he was bred to do, and having an older dog 'put him in his place' may likely end up with the older dog having its face torn off. As for the anxiety probably he wasn't socialized at all so I'd start with that.

[lh88gFzI]

That is a beautiful puppy...

I don't know. You can try to work with him, try to rehab, but he's just being true to his breed and likely won't ever do well with other dogs. Maybe teach him the concentrate on you and ignore other dogs... Though if a loose dog runs up and gets all over him, that won't help much...

There's a lot you can do, and a lot you can't.

I have seen puppies, maybe five weeks old, viciously fight... A four month old, of this breed, could do serious damage if the other dogs press him or try to correct him... It's not like to german shepherds, a pup and adult say, and the adult gives the bossy pup a correction.. They'll take it well normally... A fighting breed being given a physical correction by another dog will likely end in a fight, especially with one who's shown he doesn't like other dogs in his space.


Are you sure this home can handle him?

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------

Another thing, unless he's got all of his baby teeth, he might be older than four months. A real APBT pup can be maybe fifteen pounds at six months..

[asharbiq]

I've had a pup that at less than 3 months would run into full grown dogs. Some of them are like that, especially in game dogs that's what they're supposed to do. It's going to take some major obedience work to try to keep him from going after other animals. Emphasize on the word try...

---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

One thing that's kind of blowing my mind is you expected "a little" animal aggression. These are dogs created to fight to the death in a pit if necessary. That being said, they are also extremely smart and will pick up on the idea you don't want them to fight. The trick is keeping that control in high tension situations. The best thing I've found is teaching them to ignore other dogs and letting him know they're not a threat. It's usually never 100% though, you always need to be careful around other animals.

[ElcinBoris]

Yes, at this age this dog could seriously injure another.

I think the biggest problem with rescuing and people wanting to "save" dogs is that sometimes people don't face the reality that this dog ISNT for them. So I would make sure this new owner is able to take on the task at hand.

I do not think it is realistic to have this dog play nicely with other pets, BUT this can be controlled. He can be trained to NOT act outrageous at the site of another animal, and stay in control when on lead. But just cracking of the leash with another pet? Not something I would trust a 1st time owner of APBTs that didn't like them before to do.

p.s. his ears don't look that short and his head looks pretty normal to me. Do you have any other pictures??

[Nzmoafzn]

Agree with the others. The dog, with a lot of work and patience, could be trained to pay attention to the human and to not react so strongly at other dogs when walking. I would never, ever, trust him to be with another pet and wouldn't let him near other animals without being on a leash and at a distance where he can't get to them.

The owner will have to understand the dogs natural DA and be willing to keep him under direct control and supervision at all times. Forever. The owner will alos have to be willing to give up having other dogs (unless strictly crating and rotating) for the lifetime of this one. Is she the type to be ultra responsible and willing to do this?

I see a lot of rescues place ads about dogs like this and some of them are quite young. The polite way to phrase is seems to be "Pooch needs a home without other animals as Pooch does not get along with other pets" or "Pooch would like to live as an only pet as he doesn't get along with other animals".

[sisuarmalmicy]

I personally think that this dog should be rehomed, if this is her first apbt it will be very hard for her to deal with this if she doesnt understand this breed. I also have not had a puppy that young go into other dogs that early BUT I know quite a few breeders that have had to separate pups at 6 weeks, and ive heard that some have even had to go as far as 4 weeks. also like others have said, you can teach them around the DA, but some of them are just shredders, and need to be on chain spots away from them.

[brraverishhh]

As mentioned, you have to mange the dog aggression, there is no way to fool the genetics.

[LongaDonga]

Great advice here.

I myself once had a 4 m/o pup that would fight adult dogs. If he got loose & there was a dog out he'd run over to them, bite their stifle, work his hold & have to be broken off! Luckily for him he still had his "puppy license" or he might have gotten hurt!

A lot of people like to gloss over the history & reason for creation of the APBT, but the fact is, these dogs were created for dog on dog combat. It's in their DNA. And just like you would not rebuke a beagle puppy for zoning out to chase a rabbit or a setter for zoning out to set a bird, you can't rebuke an APBT puppy for going "red zone" (lmao @ that - you watch too much Cesar Milan!) on another dog.

Here is a tip from someone who has been there & done that - you can NEVER train DA out of an APBT. So forget even trying. You can control it, with commands like "watch me" or "leave it," but that DA will be forever lurking under the surface ready to rear it's head the first chance the situation allows for it's expression.

The fact is, these dogs are not for everyone & the home you have picked out doesn't sound right for this pup. He should be given a chance as all he is doing is being true to his breed. He is not "mean" nor is he "vicious," he's just DA, which is completely natural. Place him in a only dog, bully experienced home & don't gloss over the fact that he is highly dog reactive to his prospective adopters & all shoud be well.

And as a side note, I think he looks OK. I have seen dogs with way shorter ears & his head looks fine. I think he's adorable!

Good luck with him & let us know how things turn out!

Blessings ...

[CamVideoQl]

I've only read to here so far - as I would like to address the questions.

Yes - the family has a 6 y/o 90 lb boxer who is very tolerant of the puppy. Sebastian likes the boxer. Actually, by what the owners have told me he HAS to be with their boxer all the time. When they leave they have to keep them together of seb. will hurt himself trying to get with the other dog. When I saw them together during our evaluation seb came and saw me but stood by their boxer most of the time. No cats.

[Nzmoafzn]

So, are you saying this dog is just aggressive to dogs that aren't part of his pack? My brothers dog is the same way as an adult, but the owner should be prepared for this pup to possibly become aggressive with the Boxer at or near maturity. Quite a few people on my other bully forum had dogs raised together that turned on each other after the younger reached maturity and now live by crate and rotate.

For safety reasons it is not recommended to crate a bully breed with another dog or to leave them together unsupervised. Many people have come home to the blood and gore of a fight even with dogs that were raised together and got along well before. All it takes is one dispute over space or a toy and tragedy ensues. I would crate the dogs seperately and cover the pups crate so he doesn't see the other dog and harm himself trying to get to it.

[CamVideoQl]

Another thing, unless he's got all of his baby teeth, he might be older than four months. A real APBT pup can be maybe fifteen pounds at six months..

They have a 6 y.o old boxer who the puppy adores. Based on what they tell me it seems like the pup has seperation anxiety from the older dog. When they leave the house they have to put them together as there have been times in the past where sebastian has hurt himself trying to be with the boxer - who is a male. They've told me that sebastian has not tried to challenge or "play" with the boxer. Just follows him around the house never leaving his sight.

One thing that's kind of blowing my mind is you expected "a little" animal aggression. These are dogs created to fight to the death in a pit if necessary. That being said, they are also extremely smart and will pick up on the idea you don't want them to fight. The trick is keeping that control in high tension situations. The best thing I've found is teaching them to ignore other dogs and letting him know they're not a threat. It's usually never 100% though, you always need to be careful around other animals.

I've owned 6 APBT's total and fostered at least 10. In all 16 I've only had one female who had to be kept away from the other dogs. All of them, under supervision, played very well with other dogs. Tolerating young pups and playing with older, same sex dogs. I'm all for keeping them out of dog parks because I simply believe that if one wont start a fight they will sure as hell finish one. All of them still have the ability and drive once they get going but that doesnt mean ALL of them have severe DA. Now, like I said I am no expert. I just base my opinions on the dogs I've had in the past and things I've researched. My 5 month old pup got bit in the face this weekend by a lab and he bucked back up to him but then walked away. I know damn well if he were any older and any more mature the lab would get his butt kicked and I am ok with that. I believe in early socialization and Gambler plays fine with all dogs - never challanging them. I know the breed enough to understand his playful attitude wont last long with every dog he encounters but I wouldnt say he is DA.

ps. his ears don't look that short and his head looks pretty normal to me. Do you have any other pictures??

I will take some shots today while he is outside.

---------- Post added at 08:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------

MJJEAN - Good point with it being directed to dogs outside his pack. Let me reiterate that Sebastian doesn't immediately see the dogs and try to go after them. I can put him outside with the other's and he go potty, play with me, walk around them, and so on but the second one approaches him just to sniff that is when his body language turns into "im gonna kill ya!"

I agree 100% with keeping the dogs separated. Actually I tell my clients not to leave ANY dog together unattended. A fight could break out between siblings simply because someone jogged by the house and one of the dogs get over stimulated.

Unfortunately, I agree with most of you in the fact that this home may not be the best home for him. We are talking today and I will let her know my feelings along with several other pit bull "professionals" .

[Nzmoafzn]

Sebastian sounds a lot like my brothers APBT, Sid. Sid can be outside in the yard with other dogs and he will just do his own thing. Same with in the house. God forbid another dog come near him, though, the only exceptions being Trinity who is my brothers female ABPT and my ABPT, Rita (who used to be my brothers dog and was raised with Sid and Trinity). Sid just has to be carefully supervised and never left alone with another dog or even with a human more than a few feet away.

The key to handling Sid seems to be training and exercise with a lot of socialization. He knows more tricks than any dog I have personally seen, is very athletic and worked with daily, and my brother takes him absolutely everywhere with him. I think this is why he doesn't react as strongly as he might.

Any chance you could find Sebastian a home with active Pit people who would be willing to work him and even train and compete in agility, weight pull, obedience? Maybe people who are runners or who mountain bike regularly and would take the dog with them?

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

I personally think Sid has doggy OCD. If he ain't sleeping he is playing with a toy or being worked. Always. The amount of time my brother spends with this dog is insane and exhausting to even watch! I think your Sebastian needs a home like that with someone who is willing to make training and working and spending time with this dog their whole life.

[CamVideoQl]

Great advice here.

I myself once had a 4 m/o pup that would fight adult dogs. If he got loose & there was a dog out he'd run over to them, bite their stifle, work his hold & have to be broken off! Luckily for him he still had his "puppy license" or he might have gotten hurt!

A lot of people like to gloss over the history & reason for creation of the APBT, but the fact is, these dogs were created for dog on dog combat. It's in their DNA. And just like you would not rebuke a beagle puppy for zoning out to chase a rabbit or a setter for zoning out to set a bird, you can't rebuke an APBT puppy for going "red zone" (lmao @ that - you watch too much Cesar Milan!) on another dog.

Here is a tip from someone who has been there & done that - you can NEVER train DA out of an APBT. So forget even trying. You can control it, with commands like "watch me" or "leave it," but that DA will be forever lurking under the surface ready to rear it's head the first chance the situation allows for it's expression.

The fact is, these dogs are not for everyone & the home you have picked out doesn't sound right for this pup. He should be given a chance as all he is doing is being true to his breed. He is not "mean" nor is he "vicious," he's just DA, which is completely natural. Place him in a only dog, bully experienced home & don't gloss over the fact that he is highly dog reactive to his prospective adopters & all shoud be well.

And as a side note, I think he looks OK. I have seen dogs with way shorter ears & his head looks fine. I think he's adorable!

Good luck with him & let us know how things turn out!

Blessings ...

Thank you for your thoughts.
Just for the record - I did not pick this pup out or home him. I was contacted by the client who got my name through the grapevine to help train her pit bull pup.

I agree that this may not be the best home for him. She already had misconceptions about the breed thanks to the media so GOD FORBID she witness her "beloved family pet" get into a fight and kill another animal. If she ends the relationship now she has the "he was such a sweet, loving dog" perception and will hopefully view the breed differently then they are monsters.

I am only the dog trainer here so I can only offer my opinion. If she chooses to keep him I will do the best I can to teach the "off" and the "watch me" command along with stellar obedience.

[LongaDonga]

No problem. I have a lot of thoughts. lol.

Another great command I have learned to teach is "out." Sometimes if they tie up you can call the dog out. I had one female I could do this with. If she tangled up with another critter I could command her to "out" & she would release her hold, but only for a few seconds, so you had to be ready to snatch her up as soon as she released. Of course not all APBTs can be taught to do this, but a handler oriented dog can. It won't stop a fight but it can end one & looks better than having to pry the dog off with a breaking stick - but I would still have a stick handy just in case! lol.

Blessings ...

[CamVideoQl]