[AricGoffgog]

The weather was rough during those winters, but didn't get any better for subsequent ones. Problems came because many men of the colonies were "gentlemen" - that is, men of leisure who didn't have to work, but who still expected a full share of food, shelter etc. The various colonial governors finally declared, "If you don't work, you don't eat." And things began to improve dramatically.

--------------------------

http://www.lizmichael.com/thanksgi.htm

The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
by Richard J. Marbury

Each year at this time school children all over America are taught the official Thanksgiving story, and newspapers, radio, TV, and magazines devote vast amounts of time and space to it. It is all very colorful and fascinating.

It is also very deceiving. This official story is nothing like what really happened. It is a fairy tale, a whitewashed and sanitized collection of half-truths which divert attention away from Thanksgiving's real meaning.

The official story has the pilgrims boarding the Mayflower, coming to America and establishing the Plymouth colony in the winter of 1620-21. This first winter is hard, and half the colonists die. But the survivors are hard working and tenacious, and they learn new farming techniques from the Indians. The harvest of 1621 is bountiful. The Pilgrims hold a celebration, and give thanks to God. They are grateful for the wonderful new abundant land He has given them.

The official story then has the Pilgrims living more or less happily ever after, each year repeating the first Thanksgiving. Other early colonies also have hard times at first, but they soon prosper and adopt the annual tradition of giving thanks for this prosperous new land called America.

The problem with this official story is that the harvest of 1621 was not bountiful, nor were the colonists hardworking or tenacious. 1621 was a famine year and many of the colonists were lazy thieves.

In his `History of Plymouth Plantation,' the governor of the colony, William Bradford, reported that the colonists went hungry for years, because they refused to work in the fields. They preferred instead to steal food. He says the colony was riddled with "corruption," and with "confusion and discontent." The crops were small because "much was stolen both by night and day, before it became scarce eatable."

In the harvest feasts of 1621 and 1622, "all had their hungry bellies filled," but only briefly. The prevailing condition during those years was not the abundance the official story claims, it was famine and death. The first "Thanksgiving" was not so much a celebration as it was the last meal of condemned men.

But in subsequent years something changes. The harvest of 1623 was different. Suddenly, "instead of famine now God gave them plenty," Bradford wrote, "and the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many, for which they blessed God." Thereafter, he wrote, "any general want or famine hath not been amongst them since to this day." In fact, in 1624, so much food was produced that the colonists were able to begin exporting corn.

What happened?

After the poor harvest of 1622, writes Bradford, "they began to think how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop." They began to question their form of economic organization.

This had required that "all profits & benefits that are got by trade, working, fishing, or any other means" were to be placed in the common stock of the colony, and that, "all such persons as are of this colony, are to have their meat, drink, apparel, and all provisions out of the common stock." A person was to put into the common stock all he could, and take out only what he needed.

This "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" was an early form of socialism, and it is why the Pilgrims were starving. Bradford writes that "young men that are most able and fit for labor and service" complained about being forced to "spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children." Also, "the strong, or man of parts, had no more in division of victuals and clothes, than he that was weak." So the young and strong refused to work and the total amount of food produced was never adequate.

To rectify this situation, in 1623 Bradford abolished socialism. He gave each household a parcel of land and told them they could keep what they produced, or trade it away as they saw fit. In other words, he replaced socialism with a free market, and that was the end of famines.

Many early groups of colonists set up socialist states, all with the same terrible results. At Jamestown, established in 1607, out of every shipload of settlers that arrived, less than half would survive their first twelve months in America. Most of the work was being done by only one-fifth of the men, the other four-fifths choosing to be parasites. In the winter of 1609-10, called "The Starving Time," the population fell from five-hundred to sixty.

Then the Jamestown colony was converted to a free market, and the results were every bit as dramatic as those at Plymouth. In 1614, Colony Secretary Ralph Hamor wrote that after the switch there was "plenty of food, which every man by his own industry may easily and doth procure." He said that when the socialist system had prevailed, "we reaped not so much corn from the labors of thirty men as three men have done for themselves now."

Before these free markets were established, the colonists had nothing for which to be thankful. They were in the same situation as Ethiopians are today, and for the same reasons. But after free markets were established, the resulting abundance was so dramatic that the annual Thanksgiving celebrations became common throughout the colonies, and in 1863, Thanksgiving became a national holiday.

Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them.

[poonnassunlix]

Who cares?
Pass the Gravy!!

[njfeedd3w]

Little-Acorn, your 'debunking' of the Pilgrim myth is welcome.

Your attempt to put partisan political spin on it isn't.

Shall we now list all the 'joint-stock' corporations that established almost all the first colonies in the USA and how they all when broke almost immediately? That sounds like a failure of capitalism...

Now that is not my argument - it is only a silly one given to match yours.

Indeed, your political spin on that issue is so suspect that I'm tempted to do some research (real research, not just going to some right wing blog) and post it here... I suspect your spin is as bullshit as the popular mythology is.

[TOOGUEITEME]

I'll take some of those sweet potatoes too...

[jgztw2es]

I suspect your spin is as bullshit as the popular mythology is.

You lose.

Sorry you're not happy with yet another documented failure of socialism (or, as it's often called today, modern liberalism). But I can't help it that it failed. You're free, of course, to do all the "research" you want, to try to prove that a failure wasn't a failure. But your time might be better spent finding what methods succeed.

[DuesTyr]

You lose.

Bemused giggles. Your assertion of any fact is questionable by definition.

When it comes to historical interpretations, I suspect your assertions as being even more questionable than usual.

Sorry you're not happy with yet another documented failure of socialism (or, as it's often called today, modern liberalism).

Acorn, you are full of shit.

Socialism fails everywhere it is applied for good reasons. I'm not a fucking socialist in any way, shape or form - but that is entirely lost upon your perfect partisan ideology that holds that anyone who thinks you are an idiot is a socialist by definition.

And it is your partisan ideologues that like to pretend that liberalism is socialism. I suppose it is a good strategy to hide the fact that conservativism is becoming little more than reactionary fascism.

And it is super important for all conservatives to hide the fact that almost every value that non-religious conservatives hold dear is pure liberalism. All the foul-mouthed rightwing pundits on the planet can't change that.

But I can't help it that it failed. You're free, of course, to do all the "research" you want, to try to prove that a failure wasn't a failure. But your time might be better spent finding what methods succeed.

No, I don't waste my time looking to cherry-pick factoids to 'prove' my opinions.

I study issues and make reasoned conclusions. A radical concept to you I'm sure.

Indeed, I should have looked to see who posted this thread before bothering to read it.

[w4WBthjv]

Hey, don't hog the Pie!!
"Boy, am I glad we can all get together as a family and enjoy a good meal and conversation, sure feel sorry for those who can't enjoy a nice day with your family"...

[Z1IRo4Ap]

Your assertion of any fact is questionable by definition.

I often get that reaction, from people who can't refute what the original post said. The more truculent among them, usually attack the messenger instead.

Acorn, you are full of shit. Another typical reaction from people who can neither back up their own assertions nor come up with any others.

I study issues and make reasoned conclusions. Starting when?

Back to the subject:
Socialism is usually practiced by people who either don't look back into history to see what its results have been in the past, or by people who DO look back but then come to the conclusion that they can do better. That would be OK if they were simply playing with a chessboard or something. But all too frequently they try to impose their "new" experiments on entire groups of people. And when they manage to do this, horrors usually result, as they did to the colonists in the New World.

Fortunately, the colonists were honest enough to see the error of their ways, and change course to a plan that worked. But many other socialist groups have not been, from the USSR to Nazi Germany to Cuba. And the modern liberals of the U.S., from Howard to Hillary to John to Jesse, appear to have their blinders on just as rigidly. Even China, which has been allowing increasing amounts of capitalism, only did so after several bloody purges whose victims numbered in the millions.

A free press is vital to the search for past precedents that can guide us away from failures. Publishing the memoirs of such failures as the early colonies, must go on despite the sneers and slime of those who try to pretend that publishing them is wrong.

[MpbY5dkR]

Mmmmmm...love turkey dressing!!

[SergeyMaikov]

Acorn, you are full of shit.

I see you need more practice at "the game."

[Drysnyaty]

You guys like cranberry dressing?

[klnbgqr]

You guys like cranberry dressing?

I like to make it from scratch. Iam - you're making me hungry!

[GeraldCortis]

I'm guess I'm economically moderate, and I don't favour socialism (though it is probably to prefer over certain other ideologies). Doesn't Acorn have a funny way of looking at socialism?

Payment according to one's contribution to society (probably both quality and quantity of labour)? I can't say I'm familiar with this "grab what you can and loaf around"-thing.

[cut sifted ephedra sinica]

Say - you guys are ruining a perfectly good meal here!!
Thanks jefe for finding my table amongst the chatter...my mother always made cranberry dressing from scratch too...anything else is terrible.

[sleelverrex]

Say - you guys are ruining a perfectly good meal here!!
Thanks jefe for finding my table amongst the chatter...my mother always made cranberry dressing from scratch too...anything else is terrible.

Canned cranberry dressing is THE Great Thanksgiving hoax!

[pepBarihepe]

Canned cranberry dressing is THE Great Thanksgiving hoax!

You got that right - and canned yams as well. blech!

Now can the rest of you stop fighting over the unimportant schematics of Thanksgiving and enjoy a simple holiday?

[nintenda]

I've got the oyster dressing if y'all wanna try it. Also have the merliton dressing, too! The rich homemade chocolate meringue pie is coming out now and the homemade Dutch apple pie is hot in the oven. Better hurry cuz it all goes fast!!

[bushomeworkk]

I've got the oyster dressing if y'all wanna try it. Also have the merliton dressing, too! The rich homemade chocolate meringue pie is coming out now and the homemade Dutch apple pie is hot in the oven. Better hurry cuz it all goes fast!!

dressing!!! - now if Louisiana wasn't such a far drive from here...I'd bring my sweet potato pie, homemade mac and cheese...Kentucky pole beans with potatoes and bacon...mmmmm...who cares about all this bickering - let's EAT!!

[gIWnXYkw]

dressing!!! - now if Louisiana wasn't such a far drive from here...I'd bring my sweet potato pie, homemade mac and cheese...Kentucky pole beans with potatoes and bacon...mmmmm...who cares about all this bickering - let's EAT!!

come on down!!! I'm starving and the game will be on soon!

[artofeyyy]

Mmmmmm...love turkey dressing!!

Nice work. You successfully stopped the argument. Cranberry jelly is disgusting. Sauce with whole cranberries - oh, very good.