[perhilzit]

But Silvio IS the Queen;
he cakes on lots of makeup, then waits at the palace to get serviced by paid ladies in waiting.
Yuck.

[Zpxbawtz]

At least he pays them.... Monica Lewinsky was an intern!

All she got out of the deal was a stained dress and a used cigar.

[Suvuseh]

Re. the ideological stance, CLEARLY Berlsuconi is the leader of what, in Italy, passes for the "right wing". The problem with right/left, liberal/conservative is that they are very broad, very relative labels. I think what Fabrizio might have been hinting at is that many of Berlusconi's policy stances (such as they are) would be center-left to leftist in the US and centrist in most places.

If, Midtown, you have any genuine interest in understanding a phenomenon like Berlusconi (as opposed to just insulting him); I'm happy to point out some stuff. If not, enjoy the bunfight with Fabrizio.

Most people I know who vote for Berlusconi do so for one or more of the following reasons:

> At least in words, he supports lower taxation and is friendlier to free enterprise than the opposition (I know several entrepreneurs who voiced this to me)
> He is perceived as a successful, self-made man and a break with stultifying bureaucratic parties (Ross Perot effect, in terms that may be more familiar to you)
> They are in some way (however tenuous) linked to his business/sports/media empire (kinda like the home-state effect, again in terms that may be more familiar to you, in US presidential elections)

His "judicial difficulties" and use of two terms in power to keep himself free are explained away by his supporters in terms of judicial partisanship (very debatable), judicial incompetence/arrogance (not entirely untrue) and Byzantine legislation (partly true).

An example: under his leadership, 'false accounting' was 'decriminalized' (one charge he or those close to him have faced). Sounds pretty bad, huh? Except that under Italian law any minuscule mistake, even a formal one, constituted 'false accounting' and there was a history of 2-3 decades of Finance Police effectively extorting money from small businesses to "look the other way". I.e.: if you're a small businessman you might vote for this guy, like, forever.

Bear in mind, that corruption, though arguably more endemic AND systemic within Berlusconi's power base, is not exactly unknown among the opposition parties. No indeed.

As for his comical vanity, Latin American personality cult and, ehm, indiscretions... It just does not carry the same political penalty as elsewhere. I think a lot of guys in Italy think "there but for the grace of God, go I". .

As a shorthand, you might think that, when voting in national elections in Italy, your choice could be characterized as follows:

The "right". Veeery corrupt; somewhat complicit in organized crime; led by a vain, venal and self-absorbed man; less than effective on socioeconomic reform but not inimical to business; somewhat conservative/catholic on 'social values'.

The "left". Pretty corrupt, just not as much; clearly complicit in perpetuating public-sector perks bordering on a caste system; very divided and ultimately ineffectual in socioeconomic reform; pathologically suspicious of the private sector; socially progressive though more interested in grandstanding than addressing deep-rooted problems.

Personally, last time around I voted for the "other guys". Living abroad, Berlsuconi is, personally for me, a liability. On balance, too, he has been less fiscally prudent than the other guys. But it's a close call, let me tell you (and "none of the above" is darn tempting, too)


(edited for typos)

[ImmitsRom]

Do the trains run on time?

[uaodnabnjz]

Yes, and they zip along at a gazillion KPH

[fluoxet]

Make that 300 km/h.

http://globespotters.blogs.nytimes.c...y-run-on-time/

Info about Italy's high-speed network:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Italy

An Americans viewpoint:

http://goeurope.about.com/library/weekly/aa123002a.htm

--

[ViagraPriceBuying]

Personally, last time around I voted for the "other guys". (....) But it's a close call, let me tell you (and "none of the above" is darn tempting, too)

I voted for "none of the above".

I would never vote for Berlusconi and I never have. For me it is a matter of principle. The many conflicts of interest alone should disqualify him from office. But... but...

I would love for Midtown to tell us his opinion of Prodi... of Di Pietro, Veltroni, D'Alema....

In a NYTimes article I posted earlier, the authour tries to explain Berlusconi's appeal, she justly writes: "Compared to the old order, Mr. Berlusconi’s political class is seen as a modernizing force. "

From another NYTimes article that illustrates the common sentiment here:

"To Silvia Tomassini, owner of a boutique in Rome’s ancient center, Silvio Berlusconi is “arrogant.” At 71, he’s too old. He endlessly commits “brutta figura,” which loosely means that you can’t take the man anywhere nice. Yet when elections come again to Italy — and they may soon — Ms. Tomassini will vote for him. Indeed, polls show that nearly two years after he was voted out of the prime minister’s office, Mr. Berlusconi would probably win it back. In Ms. Tomassini’s case, she does not love him, but thinks he cares for working people. Besides, she hates the other side.

“He’s not a person of class or culture,” she said. “But he’s better than the center-left.”

---

At least Berlusconi gets things done.

The Italian people (different from an Anglo-Saxon culture) don't give a ratz azz about his call girls... not when you finally have the mountains of trash in Naples cleaned up ... not when you have a quick efficient response to the earthquake in Aquila: 300 dead, continuous aftershocks, a city destroyed yet just 6 months later it's hosting the G8 with all of the world to see. Remember that in proportion, the earthquake in Aquila is for Italy what a Katrina was to the States...

Also: It's not easy for Americans to understand but there is a part of the Italian psyche that shuns democracy. Too many Americans assume that the rest of the world thinks exactly as they do.

Luca compares Berlusconi to Ross Perot... and I think that's a good observation. But I'd also add a dose of Richard Daley, the Democrat who ruled Chicago for 21 years.

From the Richard Daley wikipedia entry:

"Daley's ways may not have been democratic, but his defenders have argued that he got positive things done for Chicago which a non-boss would have been unable to do."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Daley

--

[THOUTHCAW]

a city destroyed yet just 6 months later it's hosting the G8 with all of the world to see. LMAO, to see what? the ruins (still there), half the city still in exile, 23,000 refugees still in tents?
Fabrizio, your brain functions in upside down world.

[Avoireeideree]

Thanks for your thoughtful input, Luca.

The problem with right/left, liberal/conservative is that they are very broad, very relative labels. I think what Fabrizio might have been hinting at is that many of Berlusconi's policy stances (such as they are) would be center-left to leftist in the US and centrist in most places. Actually, when I said this:
"Nothing about guns and tuition and all of that. You paint things in Texas terms and the context here is Europe."clearly the relative nature of the labels is exactly what I was referencing.

Fabrizio has his own precious way of framing things, which invariably means a dubious comparison to something in the United States.

[RussellPG]

Midtown explain to us how the response to the earthquake and it's victims could have been better. Thanks.

And: do you see any merit in the audacity of inviting hundreds of journalists from around the world to stay there for a week and have free reign?

[theonsushv]

Midtown explain to us how the response to the earthquake and it's victims could have been better. Thanks. slow down and don't get it twisted...you explain to us why it was so fantastic. YOU brought it up...made it seem like such a stellar accomplishment for Berly, too. Jeez.

[bZEUWO4F]

From Newsweek:

Broken Buildings, Broken Hearts
Italy's initial response to a devastating earthquake has been nothing but praise.

In a country where chaos normally reigns, the emergency response to Italy's earthquake was applauded by even the most devastated survivors. Soldiers, rescue personnel and civilians moved swiftly and efficiently to extricate survivors and victims after the worst quake to hit the country in 30 years.

There's much work left to be done. Medieval Italian hilltop towns do not fall gracefully. Piles of ancient stones, heads from statues and marble pillar fragments are all part of the debris scattered on top of cars and along the narrow streets here in L'Aquila.

Less than 24 hours after the quake struck, 150 people have been confirmed dead and another 250 are reported missing. Officials say 50,000 people are homeless and nearly 15,000 buildings have been damaged in central Italy.


Immediately after the quake struck, the military was dispatched to lay out logistical plans and shore up infrastructures like bridges and overpasses. Then civil-protection workers and firefighters worked alongside policemen and neighbors to dig through the rubble in search of survivors, relying on local residents to tell who and how many people lived in each area. Lists were created and the numbers of missing and dead were dispatched to regional officials.

Within hours of the quake, blankets, water and biscuits were being handed out and those who had lost their homes or were too nervous to return were guided to a tent camp in a nearby stadium. Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi dispatched 5,000 additional rescue workers from neighboring towns and cancelled a trip to Russia to fly to the epicenter. "I want to say something important," he said at a press conference in L'Aquilia. "No one will be abandoned to their fate."

The villages of Castelnuovo, Poggio Picenze, Tormintarte, Fossa, Totani and Villa Sant'Angelo have been especially damaged. The entire hamlet of Onno, population 300, is gone. By Monday night, one third of its residents had not been accounted for.

As a spring rain shower drenched the quake area late Monday afternoon, workers quickly erected makeshift tents and handed out plastic bags as raincoats. Tent camps to accommodate 20,000 people have been set up in local stadiums for those still waiting to hear about loved ones. Many of the new homeless have been moved to hotels in neighboring communities where 4,000 rooms have been set aside. Buses were lined up along the city streets to transport residents to nearby towns where residents opened their homes.

"We will work for the next 48 hours without any stop, because we have to save lives," said Francesco Rocca, the head of Italy's Red Cross, on Monday afternoon. "Hundreds of people could still be alive under the buildings."

Even if the rescue efforts are running smoothly, the grief and devastation is almost unbearable. Crying neighbors gathered in front of a house along L'Aquila's main street, where a woman named Nadia perished along with her daughter and granddaughter. Before each victim was pulled from the rubble, massive trucks and ambulances were positioned to shield the view of the bodies being transported to ambulances. "You can film the broken buildings so they send more help," cried an elderly man who pleaded with camera crews not to film the deceased. "But please leave us to our broken hearts."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/192799

[MicoSiru]

-----
G8 summit: amid the ruins of L'Aquila earthquake

It is night on the avenue Corrado IV, at the gates of the old city. There are few cars in the streets or at the various control points of the police, army and guardia di finanza (GDF or the ‘finance police’, the country’s financial guard). This is the worst time: during the day you see the ruins, you realise that many of the familiar things are no more, but at least you see the people, the cars and the traffic – not so at night though. Then it’s a different story, with half of the city still in exile on the coast and the other half refugees in the tents of the governmental civil defence agency.

The numbers speak for themselves: more than 30, 000 still reside in the hostels of Pescara, Chieti and Teramo in Abruzzo and in Ascoli Piceno in Le Marche. Twenty-three thousand are still in tents, and those who have packed their bags and found their own place to stay elsewhere number almost as many. At the end of June, the number who had returned to their own homes was still less than 2, 000, due in part to the continued aftershocks, registering four and above on the richter scale. Prime minister Silvio Berlusconi has promised that the encampments will be closed before September and that the refugees will be re-housed in new earthquake-proof apartments being constructed on the outskirts of the town. The construction work is slow to start however, and it seems unlikely that these houses will accommodate 15, 000 people. After the scheduled completion of the first houses in September, those still waiting to be housed will have several months to go.

Against this backdrop, L’Aquila is hosting one of the most important G8 summits of recent years. According to Berlusconi, the subjects to be discussed at the three day summit include financial regulation, food security and climate change. Dozens of national delegations (27 countries will be present on the last day), will be hosted between L'Aquila, Rome and the coast. The famous boats, intended for G8 staff members when the summit was planned for Sardinia, have been transferred to the more Spartan port of Ortona. Eight countries hold the cards: Russia, the US, Japan, Germany, the UK, France, Italy and Canada. These nations represent about 13% of the world’s population, and produce well over 50% of its GDP. These events will have a strong emotional impact on residents already exhausted by three months of aftershocks, restrictions, exile and media intrusion.

The controls are currently intense, as are the roadblocks and the patrols of the various police and anti-terrorist units which have been imposed on the lives of the townspeople, who are not even permitted to walk in their streets, at least not without a ‘badge’. During the meeting (from 8 to 10 of July), travel by foot (but not vehicle) is allowed, but only to those who possess one of the various ‘badges’ distributed by the relative G8 mission, residents must register in advance for the relevant ‘badge’. Access to the encampment remains open to residents and visitors, but those tents closest to the summit are heavily controlled.

Curiously, even the movement of animals is forbidden in the western zone. Despite this though, the American delegation was pleasantly surprised when, during their official visit, they came across a herd of sheep.

pictures at
http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article...here-city.html

[VFOVkZBj]

^ Exactly.

In your opinion what more should be done?

And BTW, do have any idea how past earthquakes (for instance in 1980) went? This is why the public here has a generally good feeling about the responce and organization of this disaster. Berlusconi has come out well... despite problems that there will be, for Italy the above is a bit of a miracle.

--

[itsmycock]

a city destroyed yet just 6 months later it's hosting the G8 with all of the world to see. and what was the point here? all the world to see WHAT exactly?

[YonkFiorc]

Again, "to see" what in Aquila? This? Berlusconi is so great at getting things done, you say. I say BS.
----------
Calls grow within G8 to expel Italy as summit plans descend into chaos
While US tries to inject purpose into meeting, Italy is lambasted for poor planning and reneging on overseas aid commitments

Preparations for Wednesday's G8 summit in the Italian mountain town of L'Aquila have been so chaotic there is growing pressure from other member states to have Italy expelled from the group, according to senior western officials.

In the last few weeks before the summit, and in the absence of any substantive initiatives on the agenda, the US has taken control. Washington has organised "sherpa calls" (conference calls among senior officials) in a last-ditch bid to inject purpose into the meeting.

"For another country to organise the sherpa calls is just unprecedented. It's a nuclear option," said one senior G8 member state official. "The Italians have been just awful. There have been no processes and no planning."

"The G8 is a club, and clubs have membership dues. Italy has not been paying them," said a European official involved in the summit preparations.

The behind-the-scenes grumbling has gone as far as suggestions that Italy could be pushed out of the G8 or any successor group. One possibility being floated in European capitals is that Spain, which has higher per capita national income and gives a greater percentage of GDP in aid, would take Italy's place.

The Italian foreign ministry did not reply yesterday to a request to comment on the criticisms.

"The Italian preparations for the summit have been chaotic from start to finish," said Richard Gowan, an analyst at the Centre for International Co-operation at New York University.

"The Italians were saying as long ago as January this year that they did not have a vision of the summit, and if the Obama administration had any ideas they would take instruction from the Americans."

The US-led talks led to agreement on a food security initiative a few days before the L'Aquila meeting, the overall size of which is still being negotiated. Gordon Brown has said Britain would contribute £1.1bn to the scheme, designed to support farmers in developing countries.

However, officials who have seen the rest of the draft joint statement say there is very little new in it. Critics say Italy's Berlusconi government has made up for the lack of substance by increasing the size of the guest list. Estimates of the numbers of heads of state coming to L'Aquila range from 39 to 44.

"This is a gigantic fudge," Gowan said. "The Italians have no ideas and have decided that best thing to do is to spread the agenda extremely thinly to obscure the fact that didn't really have an agenda."

Silvio Berlusconi has come in for harsh criticism for delivering only 3% of development aid promises made four years ago, and for planning cuts of more than 50% in Italy's overseas aid budget.

Meanwhile, media coverage in the run-up to the meeting has been dominated by Berlusconi's parties with young women, and then the wisdom of holding a summit in a region experiencing seismic aftershocks three months after a devastating earthquake as a gesture of solidarity with the local population.

The heavy criticism of Italy comes at a time when the future of the G8 as a forum for addressing the world's problems is very much in question. At the beginning of the year the G20 group, which included emerging economies, was seen as a possible replacement, but the G20 London summit in April convinced US officials it was too unwieldy a vehicle.

The most likely replacement for the G8 is likely to be between 13- and 16-strong, including rising powers such as China, India, Brazil, Mexico and South Africa, which currently attend meetings as the "outreach five" But any transition would be painful as countries jostle for a seat. Italy's removal is seen in a possibility but Spanish membership in its place is unlikely. The US and the emerging economies believe the existing group is too Euro-centric already, and would prefer consolidated EU representation. That is seen as unlikely. No European state wants to give up their place at the table.

[letittbe]

^ Uh... Midtown you posted an article previously that states about the summit:

"But in the wake of the G8 summit, Mr Berlusconi’s critics were forced to concede that things had, by and large, gone well in L’Aquila and that the prime minister had, in the words of the Financial Times, trod “the path from playboy to statesman”.

So which is it?

And the article you've posted above is from the Guardian. In a follow up story a Guardian columnist notes:

"The chaos the Guardian predicted did not happen."

And:

"The Guardian is free to attack Berlusconi, as long as it has the facts. But claims that Italy is unfit for summitry are unfounded"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ly-g8-guardian

--

[illiderob]

According to the above article, there were problems. This article goes into more detail about some of them than the other did.

Obviously I'm not responsible for every word of something that I myself did not write, and obviously every reporter at a newspaper is not going to get the same exact take as every other reporter. So what. Get real.

Again, please stop editing your posts so many times. By the time I write a response, you've gone back and reworded everything three times. Just say what you mean and move on. Thanks.

[huerta]

Could you explain to us what your point in all of this discussion is?

BTW: If you noticed, about Berlusconi, Luca writes: "Personally, last time around I voted for the "other guys". (....) But it's a close call, let me tell you (and "none of the above" is darn tempting, too).

So while he says that, for him, voting for Berlusconi is a "close call", I write the following:

"I would never vote for Berlusconi and I never have."

But what we are trying to do here is this... as Luca wrote:

"If, Midtown, you have any genuine interest in understanding a phenomenon like Berlusconi (as opposed to just insulting him); I'm happy to point out some stuff."

To understand a phenomenon like Berlusconi (as opposed to just insulting him) requires some intellectual curiosity which, as I mentioned in another post, is lacking on your part.

The world is not always in black and white (Berlusconi=bad) it is in shades of grey ... especially here in Italy.

(except when it comes to soccer)

No one here is trying to sell Berlusconi on you... but we are trying to explain the phenomena. And part of that is pointing out the man's successes. You are confusing the issue by taking my postings as from a Berlusconi fanboy.

--

As for: "Again, "to see" what in Aquila?"

I think the rest of the forum has the ability to understand what it means to hold a G8 summit on the site of a national disaster of this magnitude... along with inviting journalists to see the place 6 months later, see the progress (or lack), hear Berlusconi's promises (have them on record for the world to witness... and to hold him accountable), tour the tent city, hear the praise, the complaints and even meet protesters. In comparison to past governments, this is refreshing behavior. And the efficient response to the disaster during it's crucial first days (see the Newsweek article) is an accomplishment for the Berlusconi government.

Some info about the 1980 Earthquake in Avellino... for context:

"The Italian government spent 59 billion lire on reconstruction, while other nations sent contributions. Germany contributed 32 million United States dollars and the United States 70 million USD. However, in the early nineties a major corruption scandal emerged of the billions of lire that actually disappeared from the earthquake reconstruction funds in the 1980s. Of the $40 billion spent on earthquake reconstruction, an estimated $20 billion went to create an entirely new social class of millionaires in the region, $6.4 billion went to the Camorra, whereas another $4 billion went to politicians in bribes. Only the remaining $9.6 billion , a quarter of the total amount, was actually spent on people's needs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Irpinia_earthquake

Yeah, Midtown: tell about the call-girls.

--

[Pharmaciest]

Could you explain to us what your point in all of this discussion is? I already did. Read the title of the thread if you are confused.

To understand a phenomenon like Berlusconi (as opposed to just insulting him) requires some intellectual curiosity which, as I mentioned in another post, is lacking on your part. Whatever. I'm twice as intelligent as you will ever be, and a heck of a lot more real.
Just keep the insults flowing...Alonzo will allow you to go there, but not me, so I can't really answer you the way your condescending self deserves.

Yeah, Midtown: tell about the call-girls. I don't care about them , but the hypocrisy of it, considering his grandstanding of "conservative" values all over the place is unseemly. You've expressed similar sentiment on the thread about Sanford leaving his wife so please come back down to Earth.