[Xlkl9SFd]

Are the people who are targeted by Hamas rockets firing at Gaza?

This tit-for-tat bullshit has been going on for 60 years.

Good that you know that

[gypearteday]

He's got to bring countries of the Middle East into any peace process.

its hard to have sympathy for people who:

- want to annihilate the state of israel
- encourage suicide bombing against civilians
- cannot be negotiated with
- cannot be expected to keep a truce
- use civilian population as shields
- reject anything that would make life easier for everyone

basically this is all Hamas's making they have driven themselves into international isolation, they have made their people suffer and nothing short of the rejection of Hamas and its leadership by the palestinian people will help the palestinian people

[Indessasp]

...nothing short of the rejection of Hamas and its leadership by the palestinian people will help the palestinian people

Because Israel will continue to starve them until they do.

[incizarry]

its hard to have sympathy for people who:

- want to annihilate the state of israel

I have no sympathy for Hamas, but the Palestinian people are caught in the web of geopolitics.

Come to think of it, so are the Israelis, but probably less aware of it.

[QWNPdpr5]

It goes both ways....

its hard to have sympathy for people who:
- want to annihilate the existence of local Palestinians
- encourage illegal settlements on restricted lands
- cannot be negotiated with
- cannot be expected to keep a truce
- use American population to supply weapons
- reject anything that would make life easier for everyone

I think the whole lot of 'em are crazy-both sides!
All this fighting for what- HOT DESERT SAND (I've been there).
I say cut them all off- no more supplies of any kind to anybody- until they can together.
If that can't be acheived I say lets help to finish that ridiculous wall -
build it around BOTH peoples and barricade them in together-
and let them kill each other off.
After 48 years I'm sick of hearing about that never ending see saw of
hate

[Anypeny]

You're 48? And here I thought you were a whippersnapper!

[c2siOlIk]

A situation that is largely of Hamas's making.

Israel offered to extend the cease-fire - but Hamas refused. Guess they forgot that when you aren't at peace, you're at war. Israel called their bluff, and as always, its the civilians in the middle who pay for the posturing of the powerful.

Now Hamas either has to lose face and sign another cease-fire with terms more favorable to Israel, or try to provoke Israel into invading - with the hope of "winning" on the ground, and getting terms more favorable to Hamas.

I expect that they will take the politically safer course - let the civilians die on the ground, and launch as many attacks and rockets as they can - hoping they can score a hit on a school, a mall, or an old-age home - and get those Israeli troops back into Gaza - where Hamas wants them.

[7UENf0w7]

[Boripiomi]

No 10 'appalled' at Gaza violence

From BBC

Gordon Brown is "appalled" by violence in Gaza and has urged an immediate ceasefire as Israeli air strikes continue, a spokesman said.

In a statement issued by Downing Street Mr Brown also said there could be "no military solution to this situation".

Israeli officials have vowed to continue attacks on Hamas as the UN calls for an immediate ceasefire.

Hamas says 312 Palestinians have died. The UN says 56 civilians are dead. Two Israelis have been killed by rockets.

Gaza's interior ministry and more sites linked to the militant group Hamas have been hit in a third day of strikes.

Loss of life

The UN says about 100 rockets or mortars have been fired into Israel following the attacks which began on Saturday.

They came less than a week after the expiry of a six-month-long ceasefire deal with Hamas - the militant movement which controls Gaza.

A statement issued by Downing Street said: "We are appalled by the continuing violence in Gaza and reiterate our call to Israel and Hamas for an immediate ceasefire to prevent further loss of innocent life."

This is very dangerous and a very dark moment
David Miliband
UK Foreign Secretary

Israel vows war on Hamas

It said Gordon Brown had held talks earlier with Israeli PM Ehud Olmert and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas - whose Fatah party controls the West Bank but not the Gaza Strip.

Mr Brown had pressed for "full, unimpeded and urgent access for medical teams: A humanitarian breathing space," it said.

"There is no military solution to this situation," it added.

"We must redouble the international effort to ensure that both Israel and Palestine have the land, rights and security to live in peace."

'Cease hostilities'

Earlier Foreign Secretary David Miliband warned of a "very dark moment" in the Middle East peace process as Israel continued air strikes on Gaza.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that he was concerned about the impact on the chances for achieving a peace agreement and the danger the raids would radicalise more people.

"This is very dangerous and a very dark moment," he said.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband calls for an "immediate ceasefire"

"We are now paying a terrible price for the slow and faltering pace of negotiations not just over the last year, probably not just over the last 15 years - and it is the fundamental need for a comprehensive settlement that is the only way to resolve this in the interests of the Palestinians or the Israelis."

The authority of Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas had to be reinforced, he added.

For the Conservatives, William Hague warned there was little leverage Britain could exert over the immediate situation in Gaza.

He told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "It is quite right for the UN Security Council to call for a ceasefire and an end to hostilities and we should all support that, but that does of course require both sides to cease hostilities.

"The evident reason for Israel's onslaught on Gaza in recent days has been the very large number of rocket attacks launched by Hamas into Israeli territory. That's a difficult thing to resolve."

But Ed Davey, for the Liberal Democrats, said: "The Israeli reaction is utterly disproportionate.

"From the standpoint of ordinary people in Gaza this is a full-scale attack, which is leaving women and children dead and thousands of innocent people suffering.

"The rocket attacks by Hamas are totally unacceptable, but Israel ought to have learnt from its attack on Lebanon which only served to strengthen the cause of extremism."

Israel says the aim of the strikes is to stop rockets and missiles being launched on the southern part of Israel.

Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erekat called for an immediate end to Israeli attacks, telling the BBC: "At the end of the day you don't solve such problems with military means and such large-scale attacks."

But Israel's deputy ambassador in London, Talya Lador-Fresher said security institutions and Hamas had been targeted and most casualties were "people in uniform, Hamas operatives that were busy trying to launch rockets and doing terror attacks against Israeli citizens".

[OlgaBorovikovva]

Hamas is giving Israel no choice, and Israel is giving the Palestinian people no choice but to support Hamas because of their suffering...

so really it is a lose/lose situation for everyone...

I do think that if Iran would not support Hamas on such a scale as it is doing we would not have the level of attacks from Gaza into Israel and thus no Israeli operation.

so really, Iran is using the palestinian people to advance it's geopolitical agenda...

As far as America supporting Israel, it is in the worlds and America's intereste to have a democracy in the middle east...unfortunately the only way for it to survive is to have the most advanced and best trained army/air force...

[DianaDrk]

Israel Vows to Expand Mammoth Bombing
Livni Urges Gaza Civilians to Leave Area Around Hamas Bases, But Where Can They Go?

Posted December 28, 2008

Already among the most devastating attacks in the history of the 60 year long clash between Israel and the Palestinians, the Israeli air strikes of the past two days show no sign of slowing down. Indeed, Defense Minister Ehud Barak has vowed to “expand and deepen” the mammoth bombing campaign as much as he deems necessary.

With the toll among civilians and members of Hamas’ government both rising at an alarming rate, no place is really safe, and most Gazans are choosing to remain at home.

Though she insisted that any civilians Israel kills in its bombings are really Hamas’ fault, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has urged civilians living near Hamas headquarters to leave. She conceded that the bombs would kill more civilians, but dismissed the concerns saying “a war is a war, these things can happen.”

But while Livni and the rest of the Israeli government continue to escalate their bombings in hopes of somehow changing the “reality” of the situation in the area, it must be asked: where are these civilians expected to go? Israel has been opening fire on anyone getting too close to its border for months now, Egypt is shooting at anyone not in an ambulance. As Israel launches attacks on universities, prisons, police stations, and anything else resembling a government institution, the unchangeable reality of the situation is that virtually no place in the strip is not in the line of fire of some Israeli target or other. And there is simply no place to go. “These things can happen” is likely to be little consolation as they bury their dead.

Related Stories

• December 29, 2008 -- Barak Vows ‘War to the Bitter End’ in Gaza
• December 29, 2008 -- Israel Hopes Gaza Killings Will Establish Deterrence Credibility
• December 28, 2008 -- Israel Bombs Gaza’s Oldest University

Compiled by Jason Ditz [email the author]

*****

Glenn Greenwald blogs:

Marty Peretz and the American political consensus on Israel

*****

Philip Weiss compiles outrage at:

Mondoweiss

*****

See also this mind melting story of a suicide bomber targeting a protest in Iraq opposing Israel's Gaza offensive.
"The ones who targeted our brothers in Gaza are the same who targeted us in Mosul today. They are agents of Israel"
Yahiya Abid Mahjoub
Sunni Iraqi Islamic Party, Mosul spokesman

[Tinasblue]

Hamas is giving Israel no choice, and Israel is giving the Palestinian people no choice but to support Hamas because of their suffering...

so really it is a lose/lose situation for everyone...

I do think that if Iran would not support Hamas on such a scale as it is doing we would not have the level of attacks from Gaza into Israel and thus no Israeli operation.

so really, Iran is using the palestinian people to advance it's geopolitical agenda...

As far as America supporting Israel, it is in the worlds and America's intereste to have a democracy in the middle east...unfortunately the only way for it to survive is to have the most advanced and best trained army/air force...

Israel is a savage nation like the US. The Israelis, through terrorist organizations like Irgun, killed innocent people when Israel was a British mandate.

If Israel agreed to ceding land it stole in 1967, peace would occur tomorrow.

Only a belligerent nation like America could support pigs like Israel. Our country is such a joke. People act like it's a force of good, yet we support dictators that torture their own people and invade other nations to exploit them.

[pushokalex1]

If u hate this country so much go live somewhere better... Oh wait you won't because it's easy to blame everything on the US while you enjoy your life and freedoms this country provides ..

[Forexampleee]

It's not directly analagous, but I wonder what would be happening right now if India responded to Pakistan the way Israel responds to the Palestinians. India can't because Pakistan is nuclear-armed. If I were an Iranian, Syrian, Iraqi, etc. watching Israel brutalize Gaza, as it did Lebanon last year, I would want my government to develop a nuclear deterrent at all costs.

[JamesTornC]

The government(not poeple) do this beacuase Israel wants this .

Please remember that as a result of the 2006 PA legislature elections, Hamas is no longer an unaffiliated, non-state sponsored rogue military force,but are instead a legitimate political and governing entity. By choosing Hamas to govern its legislature, the Palestinian people have implicitly sanctioned their actions; Hamas can now legitimately claim that it has mandate of the Palestinian people and are acting both politically and militarily on the behalf of the constituents who elected them.

It goes without saying that I sympathize with the innocent civilians who have lost their homes, lives or the lives of their loved ones. It is a travesty. But the fact remains, that Hamas' political credibility is derived from the Palestinian people who elected them. And from a de facto perspective, their military actions are endorsed by the same electorate. This also makes it possible for the Israelis to defend their actions as a response to an act of war perpetrated by the governing authority of another state.

[PoideAdelereX]

If u hate this country so much go live somewhere better... Oh wait you won't because it's easy to blame everything on the US while you enjoy your life and freedoms this country provides ..

Londonlawyer engages in pure hyperbole. It's useless to discuss it with him; you'll wind up sounding as foolish as he does.

It's not directly analagous

It's not analogous at all.

Iran began its nuclear weapons program in the 1970s. The threat was Iraq. The program was cut back after Khomeini seized power. It was revived again in 1991. Guess what scared them? The Iraq invasion of Kuwait. What do you think has scared them this decade - Israel or George Bush?

Most of the Middle East countries - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait. Syria - are more afraid of each other than Israel.

Besides, even if they were more afraid of Israel, it would be because of the Palestinians. It would be the result of all the wars since 1948.

[Irrampbroow]

It's not analogous at all.

Two America-friendly democracies have been attacked by militant muslims from neighboring countries in recent weeks. That's the analogy I'm referencing. Not "directly" analagous in that the Bombay attack has not been associated with the government of Pakistan as is the case in Gaza. I realize Pakistani and Iranian nuclear programs didn't come about the same way.

But you can't think Iran is more afraid of Kuwait & UAE than a nuclear-armed Israel who has promised to stop Iranian nuke development and whose allied American thinktanks & PACs have the demonstrated ability to prod the United States into full scale war & occupation(see Iraq). Even so, Iran is not nearly as worried about the U.S. now (we're stretched militarily, economically, war-weary and hostility with Russia is slowly amping up) as it was in 2003.

[CamVideoQl]

But you can't think Iran is more afraid of Kuwait & UAE

I said the Middle East countries are more afraid of each other than Israel; not that Iran is more concerned with an attack from Kuwait. Shiite-Sunni conflict seems to be more in the forefront.

And who is Turkey afraid of?

a nuclear-armed Israel who has promised to stop Iranian nuke development It seems to me that your point was that the violence in Gaza would induce other countries in the region to develop nuclear weapons: watching Israel brutalize Gaza, as it did Lebanon last year, I would want my government to develop a nuclear deterrent at all costs. So if Iran is already afraid of Israel's military vis-a-vis threats against its own nuclear program, what does violence in Gaza have to do with it? Israel has already destroyed a nuclear facility in Iraq; I'm sure the Iranians take the threat seriously without Gaza as an example.

And why assume that Iran is developing nuclear weapons as a defensive deterrence? It's just as likely that it would be used to intimidate its neighbors.

Imagine Iraq post US occupation with a nuclear capable Iran next door and Israel to the west. Which threat would prompt the Iraqi government to develop its own program?

[gooseCile]

It seems to me that your point was that the violence in Gaza would induce other countries in the region to develop nuclear weapons

That is my concern.

So if Iran is already afraid of Israel's military vis-a-vis threats against its own nuclear program, what does violence in Gaza have to do with it? Because logic dictates that every out-of-proportion response by Israel will only serve to increase Iran's determination (and diplomatic justification) to obtain nuclear weapons and lessens the hope that it can be avoided without military conflict.

And why assume that Iran is developing nuclear weapons as a defensive deterrence? It's just as likely that it would be used to intimidate its neighbors. That could very well be a strategic goal of Iran's, but they will use "defense/deterrence in the face of Israeli threats/aggression" as their official reason for going about it. Russia, the EU and others, will be more likely to consider allowing a nuclear Iran if Israel continues to overflex its muscles in Gaza and the West Bank.

I'm no fan of the Iranian government and I believe it's essential that Iran does not get nuclear weapons. I also think there is way to go about it and that involves Israel striking a deal with Palestinians. As it stands now, Israel will never settle on a deal acceptable to the Palestinians (full return to pre-1967 boundaries) because they know they don't have to. If we were to suddenly suspend our annual $10 billion subsidy to the IDF, maybe Israel would consider such a deal, but the AIPAC guarantees that such subsidies will never be diminished - not in the forseeable future.

So, Israel will be free to keep choking out the Palestinians, the Jihadists groups and despotic Middle East governments will use that suffering in Palestine as a way to stoke rage and maintain power, that rage will make it the top priority of many thousands of young, smart and able zealots to acquire a nuke and set it off in the back of a truck on Broadway one sunny morning.

It'd be nice to avoid that and one piece of the puzzle is putting a check on Israeli responses like this.

[dodsCooggipsehome]

That is my concern.


It'd be nice to avoid that and one piece of the puzzle is putting a check on Israeli responses like this.

Fact of the matter is, if it's going to happen there's nothing you can do. All you can do is pray that Israel will strike Iran before it can build a nuke.