[anconueys]

Marseilles: Grand Mosque plans

islamineurope blogspot
July 4, 2008

The architectural plans for the new Grand Mosque of Marseilles have been chosen this week. The mosque's prayer hall is 3,500 square meters and could accommodate 2,500 worshipers. The mosque, built on the site of the municipality's slaughterhouse, is expected to be completed in four years.

***







daylife.com

Photos shows the architectural model for the Grande Mosque of Marseille, designed by architect Maxime Repaux on April 30, 2009 in Marseille. Those in charge of the Association for the Grand Mosque of Marseille announced yeterday that the construction of the Mosque would start in December 2009 and indicated that they hoped to raise '3 to 4 million euros' (4 to 5.3 million US dollars) to finance the opening of the site, out of the global budget of 22 million euros (29 million US dollars).

***

Marseilles: Building of Great Mosque

islamineurope blogspot
November 22, 2007

"We have come to the end of a long and often painful road. We will do everything to have a up a powerful symbol rise up, a monument for the city of Marseilles, that at the same time respects that the republic doesn't want to associate with religion."

With these words Nordine Cheikh received the keys of the Great Mosque last evening in the Marseilles town hall.

The first stone must still be laid for what will eventually be one of the largest mosques in French. The mosque, which will cost about 8 million euro, will have place for about 3,000 believers. Cheikh, president of the association of the Great Mosque, expects that it will be ready in 2010.

Cheikh received the keys from Jean-Pierre Gaudin, mayor of Marseilles for the past twelve years. He had personally worked hard for the mosque. France is the land of laïcité – the republic stays away from religions. That makes the involvement of the city council even more exceptional.

Gaudin has a clear explanation: "The growing Muslim community doesn't have enough prayer space. All the cities where many Muslims live - Lille, Toulouse, Montpellier – have a great mosque. Marseilles cannot stay behind. We're obligated for our residents."

The port city of Marseille prides itself on being a place where various communities live well together. Or as the mayor says: "Marseille wants to be a city of hospitality." When in 2005 cars were set afire, Marseille stayed calm.

A quarter of the 800,000 residents are Muslims, and according to Cheikh 40,000 are practicing. They come especially from Algeria, Tunis and Morooco, but Marseille also has 70,000 residents from the Comoros. There are about 60 mosques in the city, generally in empty buildings, old shops or warehouses.

The new mosque is being built on the site of the city's slaughterhouse in the Saint-Louis neighborhood. The area currently has the scenery warehouse of the opera, which will be partially integrated into the mosque. Gaudin wanted to make the land available for 99 years, but the city council didn't like it. The Great Mosque now pays 24,000 euro a year for the area of 8,600 sqm, and has an option for 50 years.

Cheikh now needs to bring in funds from believersin Marseille and elsewhere in France. The lands of origin will also being considered. Algeria, Tunis and Morocco may each contribute up to 1.7 million euro, as agreed with the city council. This in order to limit the chance of state interference. According to Cheikh the first promises have already been made. The presence of the mayor of Marrakesh in the key handing ceremony gave the mosque council good hopes.

The drawings of architect Abdelouahab Khelif shows a building with a dome, a monumental facade and two minarets [25 meters high]. They will not sound the call to prayer, as that's forbidden in France.

The city council also approved this summer the plan to reserve the area next ot the mosque for a cultural center with Arabic leanings. The center must be strictly separated from the mosque in order to prevent a mixing of culture and religion.

The extreme right has protested, according to Cheikh there are also Muslims who object to the common character of the enterprise. Despite that there is barely any opposition in Marseilles to the building.

"The first donation for the mosque came from a Catholic lady, the second from the Jewish center," says Marie-Noëlle Mivielle of the mayor's cabinet. "In Marseilles the religion associate well together. If there's opposition it comes from outside the city.

[icyfreshy]

In Marseille, unease rises before France’s ‘cathedral mosque’

indianexpress.com
November 28, 2009

Notre Dame de la Garde, an elegant Roman Catholic basilica, has stood for 150 years on a promontory south of Marseille’s Old Port, symbolising this fabled Mediterranean city. Soon, however, a new and very different symbol is scheduled to rise on another promontory, on the north side of the Old Port. It is the $30 million Grand Mosque of Marseille, a dramatic reminder of the Islamic heritage that is grafting itself on to France’s cultural landscape.

The mosque, a place of worship for the metropolitan region’s over 2,00,000 Muslims, will be a 92,500-sq ft colossus, France’s largest. Already, it has become an emblem for many native French people who feel uncomfortable with an immigrant population that seeks to live by its own religious rules. Nor is Marseille alone; across Western Europe, growing communities of Muslim immigrants have created unease among native populations by seeking to affirm their own identities — by building mosques or wearing veils in the street.

In Switzerland, voters will vote on Sunday in a referendum on a proposal to ban mosque minarets (WNY Thread on the Swiss proposal). The referendum underlines the fear of many Swiss people that minarets may join cowbells as symbols of their culture.

Similar fears were stoked in Marseille two weeks ago when swarms of North African youths destroyed cars and boats to vent their feelings over Algeria’s mixed luck in a pair of qualifying matches for the football World Cup. The French national team did not seem to interest them as passionately.

Marine Le Pen, daughter of Jean-Marie Le Pen, who heads the right-wing National Front, said, “We must demand that those youths choose. You cannot have two nations in your heart, two allegiances.”

Marseille politician and right-wing lawyer Ronald Perdomo said the planned “cathedral mosque” would be a “symbol of non-assimilation”. Perdomo’s and others this week filed a third lawsuit to block its construction.

Recognising the unease — and seeking to capitalise on it — President Nicolas Sarkozy’s government has launched what it calls a “national identity debate,” in which French people are encouraged to reflect on what it means to be French.

But for men like Elias Djeddeh, a 44-year-old barber who immigrated to Marseille from Algeria 11 years ago, the Grand Mosque will provide the city’s Muslims with their first purpose-built place of worship.

© 2009 The Indian Express Limited

[Fetowip]

French Mosque’s Symbolism Varies With Beholder

NY TIMES
By STEVEN ERLANGER
December 28, 2009

MARSEILLE JOURNAL

MARSEILLE, France — The minaret of the new Grand Mosque of Marseille, whose cornerstone will be laid here in April, will be silent — no muezzin, live or recorded, will disturb the neighborhood with the call to prayer. Instead, the minaret will flash a beam of light for a couple of minutes, five times a day.

Normally, the light would be green, for the color of Islam. But Marseille is a port, and green is reserved for signals to ships at sea. Red? No, the firefighters have reserved red.

Instead, said Noureddine Cheikh, the head of the Marseille Mosque Association, the light will almost surely be purple — a rather nightclubby look for such an elegant building.

So is this assimilation? Mr. Cheikh laughs. “I suppose it is,” he said. “It’s a good symbol of assimilation.”

But as Western Europe is plunged into a new bout of anxiety over the impact of post-colonial Muslim immigration — reeling in varying ways from the implications of a recent Swiss vote to ban minarets altogether — some scholars see a destructive dynamic, with assimilation feeding a reaction that, in turn, spawns resentment, particularly among young Muslims.

Vincent Geisser, a scholar of Islam and immigration at the French National Center for Scientific Research, believes that the more Europe’s Muslims establish themselves as a permanent part of the national scene, the more they frighten some who believe that their national identity could be altered forever.

“Today in Europe the fear of Islam crystallizes all other fears,” Mr. Geisser said. “In Switzerland, it’s minarets. In France, it’s the veil, the burqa and the beard.”

The large new mosque, which its builders call “the symbol of Marseillais Islam,” is a source of pride here in France’s second-largest city, which is at least 25 percent Muslim. But it is also cause for alarm, Mr. Geisser said, embodying the paradox that visible signs of integration set off xenophobic anxiety. “All these symbols reveal a deeper, more lasting presence of Islam,” he said. “It’s the passage of something temporary to something that is implanted and takes root.”

The change has been significant over the last five years, Mr. Geisser said. “Now we’re at a crossroads,” he said, of a complicated European anxiety that stems from economic crisis; the fear of globalization; the perceived increase in immigration as European birthrates fall; and the subsuming of national states into an enlarged Europe.

“There is an angst over identity in Europe,” he said. “There’s a feeling that Europe is becoming smaller and less important. Europe is like an old lady, who whenever she hears a noise thinks it’s a burglary.” This generalized anxiety and fear is translated into a specific one, he argues: Islam, “a box in which everyone expresses their fears.”

The European Union is believed to have more than 15 million Muslims and perhaps as many as 20 million. France has five million to six million Muslims, the most in Western Europe.

In general, relations between Muslims and other Europeans have been good. But the terrorism associated with attacks in France in 1995 and 2001 in the United States has resonated through the years, reinforced by the Madrid train bombings in 2004; the killing that year of the Dutch film director Theo van Gogh, a critic of conservative Muslims; the London bombings of 2005; and the controversy over Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published the same year.

In 2004, France banned the head scarf (and other signs of religious affiliation) in public schools. It is now debating a ban on the burqa, by which the government seems to mean any full facial covering, including the niqab, which shows the eyes. That controversial measure is caught up in a government-sponsored debate over national identity, led by the ministry that also handles immigration.

Both measures have been widely criticized as political maneuvers by President Nicolas Sarkozy, capitalizing on social fears to unite the center-right and co-opt the far-right National Front before regional elections in March. He has tried to play down the religious element in the debate, but he has also urged Muslims to show “humble discretion” and avoid “ostentation and provocation”; a junior minister, Nadine Morano, said young Muslims should dress better, find jobs and stop using slang and wearing baseball caps backward.

The far-right and anti-immigrant parties did comparatively well in last June’s European elections, which had a low turnout. For the first time, Britain’s far-right party won two seats, and the Dutch Freedom Party secured 17 percent of the vote.

This year, the Danes and the Swiss have brought a new focus to mosques and minarets. Plans for Copenhagen’s first two large mosques have met with strong opposition from the right. The Swiss vote brought widespread condemnation of fear-mongering and racism, including from Switzerland’s own government.

Youcef Mammeri, a writer on Islam in France and member of the Joint Council of Muslims of Marseille, says that the debates over minarets, burqas and national identity have angered many French-born Muslims and brought them together in a defensive circle.

Asked about the source of “this anxiety about Islam,” Mr. Mammeri said: “I ask myself this same question.” He finds “a perverse aspect to all these questions asked Muslims, which are not coherent,” he said, but “liberate and dignify existing racism” and “stigmatize Muslims.”

Racism in France has moved from being anti-Arab to anti-Muslim, he said, “a terrible regression.”

If 10 years ago Muslims debated politics and assimilation, “today everyone agrees and reacts the same way,” Mr. Mammeri said. “They feel they are attacked. Today we realize being a secular Muslim or a moderate or a radical Muslim is not the right question. It’s about being Muslim.”

When he travels abroad, to New York, Barcelona or Algiers, Mr. Mammeri said, “I’m French; I feel French. But in France, in Marseille every day, you have these same questions, repeated stupidly: what about the burqa, the mosque, terrorism.”

An 11-city study of Islam in Europe by the Open Society Institute, published this month, found that 55 percent of Muslims believe that religious discrimination has increased in the last five years. Muslims are nearly three times as likely to be unemployed as non-Muslims and live more poorly, the study said, but it also found that most Muslims feel a strong connection to their current homelands and want to live in mixed communities.

In Marseille, the study found, 55 percent of Muslims and 68 percent of non-Muslims have a fairly or very strong sense of belonging to their city.

Still, the planned mosque, costing about $33 million, is not welcomed by everyone. Local politicians of the far-right Regional Front have vainly filed lawsuits trying to block construction of what they consider an effort to create an alternative landmark to compete with the city’s cathedrals.

At the Grand Bar Bernabo, a gritty cafe near the site of the new mosque, an older man who refused to give his name said, with a thin smile, “I’m going to bomb it when it opens.” Asked why, he said: “There are a lot of them already, and this will bring more of them, and there will be trouble.”

Jean-Claude, 49, a sanitation worker, said: “People in the area are flipping out, but when it’s done, it’s done. You can say whatever you want, but they’re going to build it.” He only hoped that the minaret — limited to just over 80 feet by local zoning laws — would not be taller than a nearby bell tower.

Gabrielle Martelli said Marseille had a good reputation for tolerance, “but things have been tense here for a long time.”

“There’s a lot of racism here” that goes both ways, she insisted. “When you’ve been insulted and called a ‘sale Française’ ” — a filthy Frenchwoman — “you think: ‘Wait, this is my country.’ ”

Nadim Audi contributed reporting.

Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

[dHXaE2h9]

La mosquée de Marseille

T H E - P R O J E C T

Go ^ to view Slide Show (Afficher le diaporama)

VID in HD at youtube:

Projet de grande mosquée à Marseille

[redDoodia]

these monocultures like france need to stop wringing their hands and learn to assimilate other cultures and religions. i'm just sayin.



...^ just your average mosque in a cornfield outside toledo, OHIO * whistles in the wind *

[gardeniyas]

^that's not exactly jawdropping in Europe. There are hundreds of mosques in every major city, and the Muslim population is multiple times that of North America's (near 40 million compared to 3 million). As for France there are thousands of mosques all over the country catering to 6% of the French population.
However this Marseilles mosque is replacing the traditional role of the main cathedral now, as it's so large and will be much better attended by the majority of the population, that is France's second largest city. The right wing are obviously up in arms as some sign of things to come, and the 'Islamisization' of Europe theory. The reality though for all the Muslim immigrants pouring in, combined with the falling birth rates of the natives (not in France though where native birthrates are very high) - is still that the birth rates of the immigrant children fall dramatically within the generation, alongside the high incidence of intermarriage. This ensures natives in the long term will never become marginalised population-wise. This is without even mentioning the fact these children will change culture to their adopted country.

Look at UK as a good example historically and contemporarily, the Black population numbers in the millions (with some estimates that over a third of London is Black and half of all it's children born there have at least one Black parent), and is the second largest major racial minority, yet is still one of the most 'endangered', and liable to disappear altogether.

This is because of intermarriage, with more than half (80 percent of young Black men in some areas) marrying outside their community. The same with East Asian and European migrants, whilst South Asians and Middle Easterners are still pretty high too at 35-40% intermarrying. The fastest growing race is 'mixed race', much more so than the other minorities even with their immigration levels.

This is neither a modern phenomenon, the African community stretches back 2000 years, and Blacks numbered in their tens of thousands in the city by the 1700s; there were 3000 Indians already when the first Englishman set foot in India. However, these historical communities disappeared altogether due to intermarriage.

In retrospect today's London, touted by some as the worlds most cosmopolitan city, is still only now approaching levels of foreign born as in the medieval and Roman periods. Likewise today's immigration wave, as seen countless times before in European history, from centuries long Arab, Moorish, Mongol, Hun and Turkish conquests, to modern day world wars and frontier changes, will not upset the balance - it will just move with the times and transmogrify onward with European identity that has always been fluid yet intact despite the population upheavals.

[orbidewa]

^that's not exactly jawdropping in Europe. There are hundreds of mosques in every major city, But hardly hundreds as prominent or large as the one in the photo. Most mosques I've seen in Europe are small and rather inconspicuous...tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney...or just a storefront...

I also question your statement about London being 1/3rd Black. Any real figures to back that up? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't take that number without a reference because it never looked 1/3rd Black when I visited.

[leacturavar]

I went to wiki and the number of Blacks you cited is fiction.

According to the Office for National Statistics, based on 2006 estimates, 69.4 per cent of the 7.5 million inhabitants of London were White, with 58 per cent White British, 2.5 per cent White Irish and 8.9 per cent classified as Other White. Some 13.1 per cent are of South Asian descent, with Indians making up 6.5 per cent of London's population, followed by Bangladeshis and Pakistanis at 2.3 per cent each. 2 per cent are categorised as "Other Asian". 10.7 per cent of London's population are Black, with around 5.5 per cent being Black African, 4.3 per cent as Black Caribbean and 0.7 per cent as "Other Black". 3.5 per cent of Londoners are of mixed race; 1.5 per cent are Chinese; and 1.9 per cent belong to another ethnic group.


Why is it so common for Europeans to brag about being as multicultural as the USA (or more, LOL), and then turn around and throw a zinger, like worrying their Cathedral's bell tower will be shorter than the minaret of a mosque?

[GeraldCortis]

Welcome to the newest pissing contest thread.

[251EPyso]

No, welcome to GETTING FACTS STRAIGHT. Happy New Year, Alonzo.

[ZESINTERS]

Happy New Year!

[BorBitExatini]

Why is it so common for Europeans to brag about being as multicultural as the USA (or more, LOL), and then turn around and throw a zinger, like worrying their Cathedral's bell tower will be shorter than the minaret of a mosque?

It is hard to read things so unfortunate in a forum.

Tell me, can I build a Christian church in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia or Nigeria ...? Can a European Christian walk with a gold cross on the neck or clothes or Christian symbols in the streets of Algeria, Egypt, Syria or Iraq? Can a Christian eat pork or drink scotch in a bar of a Muslim country? It is very easy to come illegally to Europe and when you're here ask for your religion the same rights enjoyed by Christians. Where is the reciprocity? Muslims in Europe can not ask what they deny other religions in their country of origin.

On the other hand, tell me what are the two countries with common border with a higher GDP differential in the world? The answer is easy: the two Koreas and Spain and Morocco. The GDP of Spain is 23.6 times that of Morocco, without forgetting that there are 39 million of Spaniards and 76 million of Moroccans. A Spaniard produced per day as that 40 Moroccans. Who can stop the human flood that occurs every day? A person living in the cities of Ceuta, Melilla and the Canary Islands is Spanish, European citizen and he is living on African soil, with Muslims: if you say those things in the streets of Melilla or Las Palmas de Gran Canarias then they throw kicked out of Europe and send you to live in the Moroccan Islam so you know what that world is. The only place in North Africa where Christians can pray freely without getting killed Muslims is in the cities of Ceuta and Melilla. Why? Because it is the territory of Spain, ... What would happen with Christian churches there if Moroccan invade these cities? the answer is easy: just as in Western Sahara in 1976, the churches would be burned and Christians killed by infidels. Islam is worse than Hitler's National Socialism. Muslims are the worst far-right in the world today.

You say that Americans are multicultural but Europeans do not. What a nonsense you have written, because American border patrol police shoot to kill to illegal immigrants trying to sneak into California or New Mexico. What are you talking about friend? Maybe for you a Hispanic from Mexico or Honduras has less Human Rights than a Moroccan or Algerian? and Cubans fleeing communism in the Florida Straits?. I would venture to say nothing happened to the Indians of the United States, you know: the Sioux, Apache, ... because it was a crime against humanity, wasn´t it?. The Americans are a thousand times more racist than Europeans and speak happily of the topic of Islam because Africa and Asia is far from the United States.

This summer they came to the beach is 500 meters below my house two small boats from Algeria with more than 30 illegal immigrants. Would you see the beach littered with corpses of young people dying every day because they are drowned in Mediterranean Sea trying start a new life far of Islam? I´m tired to see this scene in front of my dinning room every summer !!!!. I have a particular rare privilege that I will tell you: my private house in La Manga del Mar Menor (Murcia, Spain) is geographically the closest building in a straight line to the coast of Algeria from the continental Europe. No European citizen can say that lives closest Algeria (for me is closer to the Algerian coast that the cities of Madrid and Valencia) except the Spanish soldiers who reside in the military detachment Chafarinas Islands (Africa).

Believe me, Islam is the problem... and you need change your ideas about Islam and muslims, because you are wrong !!!

[Cxcvvfbgtr]

I went to wiki and the number of Blacks you cited is fiction.

According to the Office for National Statistics, based on 2006 estimates, 69.4 per cent of the 7.5 million inhabitants of London were White, with 58 per cent White British, 2.5 per cent White Irish and 8.9 per cent classified as Other White. Some 13.1 per cent are of South Asian descent, with Indians making up 6.5 per cent of London's population, followed by Bangladeshis and Pakistanis at 2.3 per cent each. 2 per cent are categorised as "Other Asian". 10.7 per cent of London's population are Black, with around 5.5 per cent being Black African, 4.3 per cent as Black Caribbean and 0.7 per cent as "Other Black". 3.5 per cent of Londoners are of mixed race; 1.5 per cent are Chinese; and 1.9 per cent belong to another ethnic group.


Why is it so common for Europeans to brag about being as multicultural as the USA (or more, LOL), and then turn around and throw a zinger, like worrying their Cathedral's bell tower will be shorter than the minaret of a mosque?

^ I see your point but those stats have been innaccurately mixed in with the last official census, in 2001, which was not only laughably undercounted (they 'lost' over 1 million people), but also severely out-of-date - having since missed out on the country's three biggest ever waves of immigration. Before 2001 London never lauded itself as the world's most cosmopolitan city, after the migration waves many people started saying so.

Basically the waves were from:

1. the EU (and EU expansion), which is not counted in a census (or at immigration control) due to the laws of citizen's right of work and abode anywhere in the EU. These are mainly Western and Central Europeans.
2. Africa: The Black population has more than doubled within a few years, replacing the historic Caribbean community, and are mostly from West and East Africa.
3. Latin America - completely unprecedented, hundreds of thousands of Brazilians, Colombians, Peruvians and Argentines.



So back on the Black population subject, also on wikipedia you can see updated data will contradict the census stats in the same article. Bear in mind London boroughs account for 7.5 million in population, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London:

"The Ghanaian High Commission in the UK believes around 850,000 Ghanaians live in London"


"According to the 2001 census over 80,000 Londoners were born in Jamaica, although the majority of London's 2006 400,000+ Afro-Caribbean population classify as being of Jamaican origin." (note the big discrepancy in numbers between 2001 and 2006).


" It is estimated that between 610,000 and an astonishing 2,300,000 Nigerians live in London".


^Add just those three communities together, and if the Nigerian estimate is right (I would say it's in between the two, but I have to say there are a damn big number of Nigerians here), that would account for 3.55 million, or 47% of the London boroughs' population. And that doesn't even take into account the rest of the major Caribbean, Somali, Ethiopian, Kenyan or Sierra Leone populations that number in their hundreds of thousands.

IMO I reckon the amount of Nigerians to be well over 1 million, and more near the 2 million mark - theyre definitely the city's largest community, and bear in mind it's been 4 years since 2006 and the African wave is still going strong (in the 5 years since 2001 count the Nigerians went from something like 30,000 to the smallest estimate of 610,000). I would add another 1.5 million+? for the rest of the Black population.

[kathy]

zupermaus, your post #6 is so full of nonsense, made-up statistics, exaggerations and false claims that you've lost all credibility in my eyes. The hogwash is an insult to your readers on this forum; we're not as clueless as you apparently think.

Btw, how does a black population disappear? Our president had one white parent and one African; and yet he's hailed as our first black president.

[Erwtbimp]

btw,

Mosquee de la Paris (1926) - there are about 378 mosques in Paris:








London Central Mosque, Regents Park (there are over 300 mosques and 500 madrassahs in the city):





East London Mosque



proposed London (mega) Mosque (capacity 70,000)




Berlin Mosques










other Grand Mosques:

Rotterdam Grand Mosque (Jamme Masjid)




Stockholm



Vienna



Sofia



Birmingham



Rome




Madrid

[nakeseireo]

But hardly hundreds as prominent or large as the one in the photo. Most mosques I've seen in Europe are small and rather inconspicuous...tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney...or just a storefront...

^ LOL.

-----

And BTW...where is the biggest Mosque in all of Europe?

In Italy.

Some views of Rome's little "storefront" Mosque.

It is bigger than anything in the US.

Note BTW that the land for it's construction was donated by the Italian government and the first stone was placed by Itay's then President Pertini :





----

And while we're at it... to add a little bit of balance.... let's take a look at Florence's inconspicious little Jewish Temple:



--

[neirty]

But hardly hundreds as prominent or large as the one in the photo. Most mosques I've seen in Europe are small and rather inconspicuous...tiny little places with a minaret the size of a small chimney...or just a storefront...

I also question your statement about London being 1/3rd Black. Any real figures to back that up? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't take that number without a reference because it never looked 1/3rd Black when I visited.

This is a LIE. For example:



MÁLAGA CITY



FUENGIROLA
(1O MINUTES DRIVE AWAY TO MALAGA CITY)



MARBELLA
(15 MINUTES DRIVE AWAY TO MALAGA CITY)

[MilenaMKB]

The cleric of the mosque in Fuengirola is famous in Spain. He was taken to prison because he explained during prayer at the mosque was the way how the Muslim people beat their women to leave no marks and avoid being reported by them to the police station (wrap the belt or stick wood in a towel and hit in the back and ass of women). Fuengirola Muslims defended him saying that they have under the Koran right to beat their wives because they are inferior to men in rights. Fantastic!.

[TheDoctor]

This is a LIE.

Are you saying you know what the other poster SAW in Europe?

[ftqwhbvxlcfop]

Dr. T: I described what I personally have seen. Forgive me if I have not seen them all. Fabrizio: I love that enormous mosque. Live long and prosper, friend.


It is hard to read things so unfortunate in a forum. So try actually reading what I wrote. Don't fill in more words.
If you did, you would know that I never said this:

You say that Americans are multicultural but Europeans do not. I never said that, and don't put words in my mouth. This is not SSC.
Don't make things up. Read the statement again, and try to get the real meaning this time. It isn't so hard.

Tell me, can I build a Christian church in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia or Nigeria ...? Can a European Christian walk with a gold cross on the neck or clothes or Christian symbols in the streets of Algeria, Egypt, Syria or Iraq? Can a Christian eat pork or drink scotch in a bar of a Muslim country? It is very easy to come illegally to Europe and when you're here ask for your religion the same rights enjoyed by Christians. Where is the reciprocity? Muslims in Europe can not ask what they deny other religions in their country of origin. So you want your country to be as intolerant as theirs? Congratulations. You will meet them at the lowest point.

I would venture to say nothing happened to the Indians of the United States, you know: the Sioux, Apache, ... because it was a crime against humanity, wasn´t it? Oh Jesus, another one of those Europeans, who, whenever they are criticized, they just turn the finger around to America? You and my other favorite poster should go have a drink together and talk all about America... see how well it helps you solve your own problems. I doubt it will.

I would venture to say nothing happened to the Indians of the United States, you know: the Sioux, Apache, ... because it was a crime against humanity, wasn´t it? It was one of the worst things to ever happen in human history. I hate what was done. What more do you want me to say?

The Americans are a thousand times more racist than Europeans Don't be silly and hatelful. Have you had a look through history? Or did you only read the chapter on American atrocities? There are enough to go around.

You are from Spain. A huge portion of the wealth of your country was built from riches plundered from South America...and the MURDER OF INDIANS. LOOK IN A MIRROR.

Seville would be empty of gold of it wasn't for slavery and theft. So don't lecture an American on the slave trade, the Indians, or racism: Europeans invented it. Spain was one of the circus leaders. In the end, there is no point in pointing fingers about centuries ago. Let's solve the problems of today: one of those is immigration in Europe. How do we learn to live together with our immigrants on both sides of the ocean instead of trying to point fingers and curtail each others rights out of fear.

Listen here: Europeans were quick to reap the riches from years of colonialism and slavery...they went across the world killing and stealing, so the way I see it, you have ZERO right to complain when the descendants of those same people whose countries you formerly colonized, are coming home to roost ...to get a piece of all that wealth that WAS CREATED AT THEIR ANCESTORS' EXPENSE. THE RAPE OF AFRICA BY EUROPE CONTINUES TODAY. Your chickens are coming home, to the empire's core, to roost. Deal with it like a mature civilization or become an intolerant throwback. It is your choice. Outlawing minarets, or switching the discussion to Mexicans, will solve nothing.