[NutChusty]

I know, it's hard to believe your Mass Media lies after so long period of brainwashing.

I'm still waiting for sources for your information other than the Russian media.

[uwJzsM8t]

Saakashivili and all the rulling top of Georgia speak English in all tv-addresses, like true office employee of Washington administration. Isn't it enough to see who his audience is?

The world, as English is one of the most universally understood languages.

Also, what would be the point of making some of his appeals in Russian or Slavic if they are the ones he is positioning against? If he is calling for support from the world and protection from Russia (right or wrong), it makes little sense for him to ask in Russian...


How can you explain so huge pecuniary aid of United States? How can you explain the visit of Condoleezza Rice just before Georgia's attack? How can you explain american-Georgian manoeuvres just before the attack? Um, where are you going with this? Association with the US /= Evil

I know, it's hard to believe your Mass Media lies after so long period of brainwashing. You have to read more than what you have been fed. We know that agencies like Fox News are blatantly biased, but you obviously have not read these forums very much or are aware that different regions of the US have different political positions. NYC being one of the largest, most vocal opponents to the current administration.

As such, some news outlets, like the NYT, have done a pretty good job at keeping things separate. The opinion page even being slanted against the current admin.

This has made others not willing to accept a contrary position, more likely to call the paper or any others that are different from the popular, unexposed opinion, as "false", "left" or just plain "unamerican".

I can see how you can get that opinion of us, seeing how some of us also agree that some of our news outlets are shamefully biased, but for you to come on and turn the table around and do almost the same thing w/o reading around the forum... Well, you are not convincing me of your merit by doing so.

Learn your audience before you insult them.

And even after learning them, be nice when you do insult them. SOMETIMES they will listen!

It's not just a unique occurrence of lie. Your Mass Media has been preparing the ground for such inconceivable lie beforehand. But now that's the limit! Actually, our media has paid very little attention to Georgia. Sorry. We have not been preparing for a war with Russia. The same media you accuse of bias and lies also concerns itself more with Paris Hilton's reply to McCain's advertisement and the death of Isaac Hays than the entire state of Georgia.

The only ones that know anything about it are the ones that pay attention to the better media sources!

[EmpaccalGah]

Saakashivili and all the rulling top of Georgia speak English in all tv-addresses, like true office employee of Washington administration. Isn't it enough to see who his audience is? How can you explain so huge pecuniary aid of United States? How can you explain the visit of Condoleezza Rice just before Georgia's attack? How can you explain american-georgian manoeuvres just before the attack?

I know, it's hard to believe your Mass Media lies after so long period of brainwashing. It's not just a unique occurrence of lie. Your Mass Media has been preparing the ground for such an inconceivable lie beforehand. But now that's the limit!

This is the truth in my opinion.

The US is trying to demonize Russia, to try to bully them into going along with Iranian sanctions, or at least have a poor standing from which to object (at least publicly). In private, I think the US has told Russia -- take South Ossetia, but get out of our way on Iran.

NY Times | Aug. 9, 2008
“Strategically, the Russians have been sending signals that they really wanted to flex their muscles, and they’re upset about Kosovo,” the diplomat said. He was alluding to Russia’s anger at the West for recognizing Kosovo’s independence from Serbia.

Indeed, the decision by the United States and Europe to recognize Kosovo may well have paved the way for Russia’s lightning-fast decision to send troops to back the separatists in South Ossetia. During one meeting on Kosovo in Brussels this year, Mr. Lavrov, the foreign minister, warned Ms. Rice and European diplomats that if they recognized Kosovo, they would be setting a precedent for South Ossetia and other breakaway provinces.

For the Bush administration, the choice now becomes whether backing Georgia — which, more than any other former Soviet republic has allied with the United States — on the South Ossetia issue is worth alienating Russia at a time when getting Russia’s help to rein in Iran’s nuclear ambitions is at the top of the United States’ foreign policy agenda.

One United Nations diplomat joked on Saturday that “if someone went to the Russians and said, ‘OK, Kosovo for Iran,’ we’d have a deal.”

That might be hyperbole, but there is a growing feeling among some officials in the Bush administration that perhaps the United States cannot have it all, and may have to choose its priorities, particularly when it comes to Russia.

The Bush administration’s strong support for Georgia — including the training of Georgia’s military and arms support — came, in part, as a reward for its support of the United States in Iraq. The United States has held Georgia up as a beacon of democracy in the former Soviet Union; it was supposed to be an example to other former Soviet republics of the benefits of tilting to the West.

But that, along with America and Europe’s actions on Kosovo, left Russia feeling threatened, encircled and more convinced that it had to take aggressive measures to restore its power, dignity and influence in a region it considers its strategic back yard, foreign policy experts said.

Russia’s emerging aggressiveness is now also timed with America’s preoccupation with Iraq and Afghanistan, and the looming confrontation with Iran.

[picinaRefadia]

You must understand we have nothing against georgians. They're our brothers, but the rulling top is complitely sold. It's the property of United Sates now, puppet government.

[RotsLoado]

^
That's not the point.

Take note that the post above yours cites a US media source, giving a more balanced viewpoint than what I've seen from Putin media.

Your claims as to the loss of life are not substantiated.

[Unrersvar]

Start of conflict. Germany news.

See the date and time of news!!!!

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/function/0...n-all-1573-rdf
Heavy fighting has broken out between Georgia and its breakaway region of South Ossetia. Georgia's Interior Minister has reportedly told the Agence France Presse news agency that his country has launched an attack and that clashes are taking place near the Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. The Associated Press is reporting that Tskhinvali has come under heavy fire. Hours earlier, the two sides agreed to a ceasefire following a week of mounting clashes. They were scheduled to hold Russian mediated talks later on Friday. The United States has expressed great concern over the situation and urged an immediate end to all violence. South Ossetia broke from Georgian control during a war in the early 1990s, the rebel government enjoys support from Moscow. The Germany is Putin, isn't????

[Z1IRo4Ap]

^
Does that account support what you stated in Post #10?

I don't think so.

[Encannavalf]

Oh boys....
Are you really believe your mass media after sept/11???
Why the news show you the crash of building BEFORE the crash started!!!????

I think that you mast ask about this your president....
Also ask him about chemical and nuclear weapon in Iraq....
(Why American solders dies and civil dies too)
Also ask him about Cosovo....

[CGH1KZzy]

Defiant Putin accuses US of 'helping Georgia'
as fighting escalates amid fears of ground invasion


On the move: Russian troops wind along a road near the border
between North and South Ossetia amid fears of a ground invasion

Evening Guardian
thisislondon.co.uk
August 11, 2008 / 4:48 PM GMT

• Putin lashes out at the U.S. for 'helping Georgia'
• Georgia 'restarts shelling' after ceasefire call ignored
• Fears of ground invasion as troops mass in Abkhazia
• Refugee crisis as 40,000 flee

Russian premier Vladimir Putin today raised the stakes over the conflict in Georgia by lashing out at the U.S. as the fighting continued to escalate in the region. The Russian prime minister rejected calls from Georgia for a ceasefire and declared that his country would pursue its mission to its 'logical conclusion'.
A day after a face-to-face meeting with President George W. Bush in Beijing who expressed 'grave concern', Mr Putin accused the U.S. of siding with Georgia by ferrying Georgian troops from Iraq to the battle zone. 'It is a shame that some of our partners are not helping us but, essentially, are hindering us,' said Mr Putin. 'The very scale of this cynicism is astonishing.' Gordon Brown spoke out for the first time about the conflict. From his holiday, he declared there was 'no justification' for Russia's military action.
However, fears of a ground invasion in Georgia itself were growing today as Russia confirmed it had rolled out tanks into the western part of the country. Defence ministry spokeswoman Nana Intskerveli said the tanks had seized a Georgian military base in the town of Senaki. The statement indicated Russian troops had entered the region from a second rebel province of Abkhazia, where troops have been massing since the weekend.
There are concerns a new front away from South Ossetia could open up around Abkhazi, which would represent a major escalation in the conflict. Thousands of troops, dozens of tanks and Hurrican multiple rocket launchers were seen pouring along roads to the south of Russia earlier today.
Retaliation: Russian forces secure the area in the Khurcha settlement
in breakaway region of Abkhazia

Russian warplanes also launched new attacks inside Georgia today, one on the outskirts of the capital and another on the Black Sea port of Poti. Around 50 fighters jets were spotted flying over the country, amid fears Russia could also be preparing to launch a ground invasion of Georgia from within South Ossetia. Officials in the breakaway region today claimed Georgian troops had also resumed shelling there after its calls for a ceasefire were ignored by Russia.
President Bush warned Mr Putin of his 'grave concern' about the 'disproportionate' military intervention at a face-to-face meeting in Beijing yesterday. His Vice-President Dick Cheney also personally called the Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili over the weekend to reassure him his country has U.S backing.

Warning: U.S. President George W. Bush with Vladimir Putin in Beijing.
Putin today lashed out in return, accusing the U.S. of helping Georgia

Amid fears Moscow intends to seize the whole country to gain control of its crucial oil pipelines, Mr Cheney declared Russian military action 'must not go unanswered'. In a statement, he added: 'Its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community.'

Russia appeared to be totally defying the U.S. warning today, with Georgia claiming up to 50 Russian jets were roaming its skies ready to strike. Mr Putin and Russian President, Dimitry Medvedev, attended a summit with senior generals at the Kremlin today for a council of war. President Medvedev announced later that its military operations in South Ossetia were 'nearing conclusion'. 'A major part of operations to force the Georgian side, the Georgian authorities, into peace in South Ossetia has been completed.' But there was no sign of any halt to the fighting on the ground early today as Russia launched another series of bombing raids amid fears of a ground invasion.


Loss: Family and friends of an Ossetian killed in the fighting in Tskhinvali weep at his funeral today


Safety: The first group of 95 Poles evacuated from Georgia
arriving in Warsaw today

In one attack today, Russian jets hit communications facilities on the outskirts of the Georgian capital Tbilisi, while another targeted the Black Sea port of Poti. Georgian interior ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said Russian tanks were also trying to advance towards the town of Gori, near the country's border with but had been repulsed. Russia was also reported to have sent more paratroopers into Abkhazia where it now has more than 9,000 soldiers as well as tanks and armoured vehicles.

Georgia claimed Gen. Sergei Chaban, who is in charge of Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia, had warned their forces must disarm or face Russian troops there as well as in South Ossetia where the conflict began on Friday. A ground invasion launched from Abkhazia would be a drastic step, and almost impossible for Georgia to counter with most of its troops still near South Ossetia. It was also alleged dozens of Russian bombers were attacking targets inside Georgian territory, including around Tbilisi. Russian officials said the air raids were targeting supply lines and military facilities and were not directed at civilians but one in Gori on Saturday killed more than 20 and wounded scores of others.


Bloodied: A woman lies injured in the ruins of an apartment block in Gori


Basic: The wounded stay in a hospital shelter in the South Ossetian capital

NATO also joined the condemnation today, accusing Russia of using excessive force and violating Georgia's territory by taking the military action beyond South Ossetia. Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer was 'seriously concerned about the disproportionate use of force by the Russians and the lack of respect for the territorial integrity of Georgia,' a spokesman said. 'The military operations that we saw on Saturday and since then, including air and missile attacks, have no relation to and go well beyond the CIS peacekeeping operation.'

Diplomatic efforts to secure a ceasefire were continuing today, with French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner leading a delegation from the European Union asking for a 'controlled withdrawal of troops'. Meanwhile, Russia accused Georgia of killing three of its troops in the shelling on the South Ossetian capatal Tskhinvali and claimed another two of its planes had been shot down. A separate Council of Europe delegation lead by Sweden's foreign minister was also on its way to the Georgian capital for talks. Georgia claimed yesterday to have pulled out its troops from South Ossetia and was calling for a ceasefire. The demand was rejected by the Kremlin, which said it did not believe the Georgian forces had actually retreated.



Support: U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney (left)
phoned Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili
in person to offer America's backing to the region

The region is an international flashpoint, given its vital position in terms of oil supplies which run from the Caspian Sea to Europe through the small country.

It is feared the Kremlin could be using the conflict to disrupt fuel supplies, which would make the West even more dependent on Russian oil. The U.S. has refused to indicate what it may do if the fighting continues and Russia refuses to back down.


Anguish: A man cradles the body of a relative in the street after
Russian planes bomb homes in Gori, killing five people


Two women attempt to sleep after taking refuge in the hospital shelter

State-controlled Russian television claim more than 2,000 people have been killed in South Ossetia and thousands made homeless. And a Georgian government source said yesterday that 130 civilians and military personnel had been killed and 1,165 wounded, many because of Russian bombing.

The smaller country's withdrawal from South Ossetia left Russian troops in control. Many towns were deserted with reports of 40,000 fleeing across the war zone. Some 50 ambulances were ferrying wounded Georgian troops from South Ossetia to hospitals in neighbouring cities, all of which were already overcrowded. Russian television showed Tskhinvali's main hospital in ruins and most of the more than 230 patients crammed into the basement. A few bare lightbulbs provided scant illumination and the report said the hospital had no ready supply of water. Some patients sat listlessly on beds jammed into a tiny, dim area with unfinished walls.


Two wounded Georgian soldiers receive treatment in a hospital in Tbilisi


South Ossetians stay in a school shelter in
the South Ossetian capital of Tshinvali

Russia's Defence Ministry also claimed yesterday to have sunk a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack its navy in the Black Sea. South Ossetia, which unlike Georgia proper, is loyal to Russia - provided the catalyst for the dispute.

Pro-Moscow rebels provoked Georgia's president into ordering his troops into South Ossetia last week. Mr Putin's government then retaliated with a counter-offensive to seize back the disputed region. However, the escalation of violence has led to concerns that Russia could try to annex the entire country. 'They want the whole of Georgia,' claimed President Saakashvili. 'The Russians need control over energy routes from central Asia and the Caspian Sea. 'In addition, they want to get rid of us, they want regime change. Every democratic movement in this neighbouring region must be got rid of.'


Despair: A woman holding her baby cries at her damaged home in Gori

Russian planes yesterday bombed the main civilian airport in the capital Tbilisi, which is used by British Airways and other Western airlines. A government official said the Russian air strike appeared to have been aimed at the nearby military airport and an aviation construction plant. 'It turns out they hit both military and civilian airports,' the spokesman added.

The attack came hours before the arrival of the French foreign minister on a peace mission. 'We don't want the conflict to spread in a region which is extremely volatile and dangerous,' Mr Kouchner told reporters.


Outnumbered: Georgian troops ride on a pick-up truck

Despite the attempts of the international community to calm the crisis, Mr Putin was bullish last night, blaming Georgia for creating a 'humanitarian catastrophe'. He appeared on TV listening to two young women from an Ossetian village who claimed that Georgian soldiers herded 50 people into a house and burned them alive. One of them said: 'My friend was a witness of a Georgian tank driving over an elderly woman with two kids.' Putin replied: 'They are completely mad. It's genocide.' He later claimed that Georgia had lost the right to rule the region, implying the Russians were set for a long and probably permanent occupation of both South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

It is clear that Moscow is intent on severely hampering Georgia's military capability, which has been built up with Western help. Crucial strategic sites in the port of Poti, the city of Gori - staging post to South Ossetia - and around Tbilisi have been taken out by the Russian air force. Worst-hit was the capital of the separatist region, Tskhinvali, but death and devastation was wreaked across the region, as well as in cities in Georgia.


Walking wounded: An injured woman stands next to her bombarded home


Fleeing: Mother and son stare at the carnage as they are evacuated

Western concerns about Moscow's desire to control the region's oil supply were yesterday gathering strength. While Georgia does not produce oil itself, U.S. and European energy firms have counted on the pro-Western country - sandwiched between Russia and Iran - to host a pipeline for oil and gas exports from Azerbaijan.

The head of Azerbaijan's state oil company warned that exports had already been halted via the Georgian ports of Batumi and Kulevi due to the fighting. The announcement came shortly after Russian warplanes staged a raid near the 1,109-mile BTC pipeline, the world's second longest.

BP, a partner in this project, was seeking information on the reports. Some analysts believe Russia provoked Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, knowing that the smaller country could not win the resulting conflict. Others say that Moscow was simply drawing a red line around areas with pro-Russian populations which it would not allow to be controlled by pro-Western states.

The regions of Ossetia and Abkhazia are culturally and linguistically distinct from Georgia, and broke away from it during brief wars in the early 1990s.


Enlarge

CLAIM AND COUNTERCLAIM: COUNTRIES DEATH TOLLS



RUSSIA

• Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said on Sunday that more than 2,000 people, mostly Russian citizens, had died in the conflict zone.
• On Saturday Russian Ambassador to Georgia Vyacheslav Kovalenko said at least 2,000 civilians had died in Tskhinvali alone as a result of fighting between Russian and Georgian forces, according to Interfax news agency. He said 13 Russian peacekeepers were killed and up to 70 injured in the fighting.
• Sergei Sobyanin, the Russian government chief of staff, said 30,000 South Ossetian refugees had fled to Russia since early on Friday.

GEORGIA

• Kakha Lomaia, the National Security Council secretary, said on Sunday that 40 civilians had been killed and more than 200 wounded but gave no details.
• A source in the Georgian government told Reuters on Saturday 129 Georgian civilians and military were killed and 748 wounded.
• Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said Russian aerial bombing had killed around 30 Georgian soldiers.

SOUTH OSSETIA

• South Ossetia's President Eduard Kokoity on Friday said about 1,400 people had died in Tskinvali.

© 2008 Associated Newspapers Limited

[xkQCaS4w]

Oh boys....

Are you really believe your mass media after sept/11???

Why the news show you the crash of building BEFORE the crash started!!!????

Amazing how you so easily throw all your credibility out the window.

Maybe change your name to "FalseTruth"

Or just stay home.

You're not helping the cause of TRUTH or Georgia or Russia or mankind as a whole.

[Eviftilia]

Your claims as to the loss of life are not substantiated. Are you kidding? Will you really deny georgian forces has slaughtered over two thousand of civilians. Do you know what "Grad" is? Have a look
Do you think it's humane to use it in a city? I tell you, it's not only inhuman, it's forbidden.

And I talk not only about "Grad." They killed everyone they met on their way. Even one-month old children, their mothers, everyone. They cut throats, they locked up people in a house and sat it on fire! They didn't even spare any old man.

[rozalinasi]

Oh boys....
Are you really believe your mass media after sept/11???

If you browse other topics on this forum, you'll find that most of us question out own government and media.

Can the same be said of you? I assume since you popped up on this forum right after the Russia-Georgia incident, that you post on other forums. Can you show me any instances where you have disagreed with your own government?

You came on here and made this a right-or-wrong argumnt. We don't see it that way. But as long as you brush aside all negative accounts as lies while blindly accepting versions that agree with your view, we really can't have an adult conversation.

[abOfU9nJ]

Are you kidding? Will you really deny georgian forces has slaughtered over two thousand of civilians.

I'm not denying or accepting anything. I'm still waiting for supporting evidence for Post #10. I haven't asked you to believe anything; why should you demand that I believe you?

[Lyikmcmb]

McCain Makes Statement on Georgia

MSNBC / First Read
Adam Aigner-Treworgy & Chuck Todd
August 11, 2008

ERIE, PA -- At his hotel here this morning, McCain read a statement (i.e., took no questions) regarding the situation in Georgia. Once again, he condemned Russia's actions in harsh language, and called on the US to begin sending economic and humanitarian aid to Georgia to mitigate the effects of "Russian aggression." And he called on the secretary of state to travel to Europe and outline a "common Euro-Atlantic position" on how to proceed.

"Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government's actions will have for Russia's relationship with the U.S. and Europe. It is time we moved forward with a number of steps."

"The United States and our allies should continue efforts to bring a resolution before the UN Security Council condemning Russian aggression, noting the withdrawal of Georgian troops from South Ossetia, and calling for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgian territory. We should move ahead with the resolution despite Russian veto threats, and submit Russia to the court of world public opinion."

But if McCain is trying to own this issue while Obama is away on vacation, why isn't he taking questions from this press? Is he afraid of making policy on the fly if reporters press him on what those "negative consequences" for Russia would be?

Below is McCain's full statement...

STATEMENT BY JOHN MCCAIN ON THE CRISIS IN GEORGIA

For Immediate Release Contact: Press Office
Monday, August 11, 2008 703-650-5550

ARLINGTON, VA - Today, in Erie, Pennsylvania, U.S. Senator John McCain delivered the following statement regarding the current conflict between Georgia and Russia:

"Americans wishing to spend August vacationing with their families or watching the Olympics may wonder why their newspapers and television screens are filled with images of war in the small country of Georgia. Concerns about what occurs there might seem distant and unrelated to the many other interests America has around the world. And yet Russian aggression against Georgia is both a matter of urgent moral and strategic importance to the United States of America.

"Georgia is an ancient country, at the crossroads of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, and one of the world's first nations to adopt Christianity as an official religion. After a brief period of independence following the Russian revolution, the Red Army forced Georgia to join the Soviet Union in 1922. As the Soviet Union crumbled at the end of the Cold War, Georgia regained its independence in 1991, but its early years were marked by instability, corruption, and economic crises.

"Following fraudulent parliamentary elections in 2003, a peaceful, democratic revolution took place, led by the U.S.-educated lawyer Mikheil Saakashvili. The Rose Revolution changed things dramatically and, following his election, President Saakashvili embarked on a series of wide-ranging and successful reforms. I've met with President Saakashvili many times, including during several trips to Georgia.

"What the people of Georgia have accomplished - in terms of democratic governance, a Western orientation, and domestic reform - is nothing short of remarkable. That makes Russia's recent actions against the Georgians all the more alarming. In the face of Russian aggression, the very existence of independent Georgia - and the survival of its democratically-elected government - are at stake.

"In recent days Moscow has sent its tanks and troops across the internationally recognized border into the Georgian region of South Ossetia. Statements by Moscow that it was merely aiding the Ossetians are belied by reports of Russian troops in the region of Abkhazia, repeated Russian bombing raids across Georgia, and reports of a de facto Russian naval blockade of the Georgian coast. Whatever tensions and hostilities might have existed between Georgians and Ossetians, they in no way justify Moscow's path of violent aggression. Russian actions, in clear violation of international law, have no place in 21st century Europe.

"The implications of Russian actions go beyond their threat to the territorial integrity and independence of a democratic Georgia. Russia is using violence against Georgia, in part, to intimidate other neighbors - such as Ukraine - for choosing to associate with the West and adhering to Western political and economic values. As such, the fate of Georgia should be of grave concern to Americans and all people who welcomed the end of a divided of Europe, and the independence of former Soviet republics. The international response to this crisis will determine how Russia manages its relationships with other neighbors. We have other important strategic interests at stake in Georgia, especially the continued flow of oil through the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which Russia attempted to bomb in recent days; the operation of a critical communication and trade route from Georgia through Azerbaijan and Central Asia; and the integrity and influence of NATO, whose members reaffirmed last April the territorial integrity, independence, and sovereignty of Georgia.

"Yesterday Georgia withdrew its troops from South Ossetia and offered a ceasefire. The Russians responded by bombing the civilian airport in Georgia's capital, Tblisi, and by stepping up its offensive in Abkhazia. This pattern of attack appears aimed not at restoring any status quo ante in South Ossetia, but rather at toppling the democratically elected government of Georgia. This should be unacceptable to all the democratic countries of the world, and should draw us together in universal condemnation of Russian aggression.

"Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government's actions will have for Russia's relationship with the U.S. and Europe. It is time we moved forward with a number of steps.

"The United States and our allies should continue efforts to bring a resolution before the UN Security Council condemning Russian aggression, noting the withdrawal of Georgian troops from South Ossetia, and calling for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgian territory. We should move ahead with the resolution despite Russian veto threats, and submit Russia to the court of world public opinion.

"NATO's North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a ceasefire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia and the implications for NATO's future relationship with Russia, a Partnership for Peace nation. NATO's decision to withhold a Membership Action Plan for Georgia might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks on Georgia, and I urge the NATO allies to revisit the decision.

"The Secretary of State should begin high-level diplomacy, including visiting Europe, to establish a common Euro-Atlantic position aimed at ending the war and supporting the independence of Georgia. With the same aim, the U.S. should coordinate with our partners in Germany, France, and Britain, to seek an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers to discuss the current crisis. The visit of French President Sarkozy to Moscow this week is a welcome expression of transatlantic activism.

"Working with allied partners, the U.S. should immediately consult with the Ukrainian government and other concerned countries on steps to secure their continued independence. This is particularly important as a number of Russian Black Sea fleet vessels currently in Georgian territorial waters are stationed at Russia's base in the Ukrainian Crimea.

"The U.S. should work with Azerbaijan and Turkey, and other interested friends, to develop plans to strengthen the security of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline.

"The U.S. should send immediate economic and humanitarian assistance to help mitigate the impact the invasion has had on the people of Georgia. Our united purpose should be to persuade the Russian government to cease its attacks, withdraw its troops, and enter into negotiations with Georgia. We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world. World history is often made in remote, obscure countries. It is being made in Georgia today. It is the responsibility of the leading nations of the world to ensure that history continues to be a record of humanity's progress toward respecting the values and security of free people.

"Thank you."

[fuesquemill]

...Russian actions, in clear violation of international law, have no place in 21st century Europe.

I thought the Caucuses were the European boundary?

"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography."
-Ambrose Bierce

The U.S. should work with Azerbaijan and Turkey, and other interested friends, to develop plans to strengthen the security of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline.

[Liabmeasez]

I'm still waiting for supporting evidence for Post #10. Now I think there is no reason to give any link. The only answer I can expect is that it is so-called Putin-media or something like that. I want to apologize, I didn't mean everybody here believe everything mass media say. I just wanted to warn you that there are some chanals who misrepresent facts. Georgia isn't a victim, it's aggressor. That is the fact. De jure that's how matters stand.

[JJascaxal]

I thought the Caucuses were the European boundary?

In keeping with the idea of a geography lesson ...

Whether the boundary between Europe < > Asia is delineated by the Caucuses Mountains or the Don River (farther to the north, running from the central Ukraine to the Sea of Azov) Georgia seems clearly situated outside of Europe and, rather, is a part of Asia.

So how does NATO enter into this? Particularly when NATO -- the North Atlantic Treaty Organization -- is described on its own NATO website as:

" ... an alliance of 26 countries from North America and Europe ...

Seems NATO is trying to keep its neighbors in line, as neither Russia nor Georgia are members of NATO. And only want to play nice with their neighbors when it suits their interest (same as most countries when it comes to wielding their power).

However, NATO and Georgia have an Individual Partnership Action Plan (IPAP) which:

... lays out the detailed programme of cooperation between Georgia and NATO ... "

... "At their Summit in Bucharest in April 2008, NATO leaders agreed that Georgia would become a member of the Alliance, and launched a period of intensive engagement with Georgia to address questions still outstanding pertaining to Georgia’s Membership Action Plan (MAP) application" ... And since 2002, follwoing the establishment of the NATO-Russia Council (NRC), NATO and Russia have attempted to cooperate:

NATO member states and Russia regularly consult on current security issues and are developing practical cooperation in a wide range of areas of common interest ...

The NATO-Russia Council (NRC) is the main forum for advancing NATO-Russia relations, in which the 26 Allies and Russia work together as equal partners to identify and pursue opportunities for joint action ...

[flielagit]

Look at the map in post #35 very closely. This is about controlling the oil pipline that supplies much of Europe. Russia wants to contol the spigot. With the objective of using oil as a weapon to gain leverage over Europe and USA. A pro-western Georgia thwarted this objective, so the presence of Georgian troops in south Ossetia just made it more convient for the Russians to send a message to the Georgian government and scary the Georgian people from electing another pro-western government. Whether this tactic will prove effective we'll have to wait and see.

[weightpillsnow]

The Real Aggressor

Georgian invasion of South Ossetia sets the stage for a wider war

August 11, 2008
Justin Raimondo

The anti-Russian bias of the Western media is really something to behold: "Russia Invades Georgia," "Russia Attacks Georgia," and variations thereof have been some of the choice headlines reporting events in the Caucasus, but the reality is not only quite different, but the exact opposite. Sometimes this comes out in the third or fourth paragraph of the reportage, in which it is admitted that the Georgians tried to "retake" the "breakaway province" of South Ossetia. The Georgian bombing campaign and the civilian casualties – if they are mentioned at all – are downplayed and presented as subject to dispute.

The Georgians have been openly engaging in a military buildup since last year, and President Mikhail Saakashvili and his party have been proclaiming from the rooftops their aim of re-conquering South Ossetia (and rebellious Abkhazia, while they're at it). Avid readers of Antiwar.com saw this coming. In a column entitled "Wars to Watch Out For," I wrote:
"As President Mikheil Saakashvili deflowers his own revolution and shuts down the opposition media, he could well try to divert attention away from his political problems by ginning up a fresh conflict with the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both of which are protected by Russian troops and regional militias."That's what Western reporters aren't telling their readers: the South Ossetians (and the Abkhazians) have had de facto independence since 1991, when they rose up against their "democratic" central government, which had banned regional parties from participating in elections. They beat back the Georgian army, which, nonetheless, inflicted a lot of casualties and damage. A low-level war has been in progress ever since, with Saakashvili and his ultra-nationalist party using the rebels as a foil to divert attention from their repressive domestic policies and Georgia's sad status as an economic basket case. As I wrote way back at the beginning of this year:
"Saakashvili, the great 'democrat,' is busy charging anyone who opposes him with being a pawn of the Russians (and therefore guilty of treason), but the West is calling on him to restore civil liberties – and, in an apparent effort to propitiate his Western benefactors, he has lifted some restrictions and called new elections. Widespread and growing opposition to his strong-arm tactics, even among many of his former supporters, spells political trouble for Saakashvili and his corrupt cohorts, however – and an appeal to Georgian ultra-nationalism (which was always the real ideological motivation of the Rose Revolutionaries) would bolster him in the polls and provide a much-needed distraction, at least from the ruling party's point of view."What's particularly disgusting is the spectacle of the fraudulent Saakashvili's smug mug all over Western television – the BBC and Bloomberg, for starters – invoking his great love of "democracy" and "freedom" and calling on the U.S. to intervene in the name of supposedly shared "values." What drivel! Up until very recently, Saakashvili has been busy rounding up his political opponents and charging them with espionage, as his police beat demonstrators in the streets. When this happened, even our somnolent media sat up and took notice, but they seem to have forgotten.

Saakashvili uses the Western media as a platform to broadcast his great love for "freedom" and make the case against the Russian "aggressors," comparing the present conflict with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s – and even the bloody 1956 repression of the Hungarians! This is nonsense. Russia is not the Soviet Union, the Iron Curtain has long since been melted down for scrap metal, and, if anything, Saakashvili resembles the Hungarian satraps of the Kremlin rather than the heroic freedom-fighters, given his absolute fealty to his foreign masters in Washington, to whom he appeals for help in putting down an internal rebellion.

In any case, it wasn't too hard to have seen this coming a mile away, or to predict the American government's response. As I wrote in "Wars To Watch Out For":
"In the event of an outbreak of hostilities, expect the U.S. to do what they have done for the duration of Georgia's political crisis: proffer unconditional support to Saakashvili. With Russia aiding and giving political and diplomatic support to the Abkhazians and the Ossetians, and the Americans letting loose a flood of military aid to Tbilisi, this could be the first theater of actual conflict in the new cold war."Which is precisely what has occurred. The United States is denouncing the Russians as aggressors in the UN Security Council and accusing the Kremlin of engaging in a policy of "regime change," in Ambassador Khalilzad's phrase. The Russian response: "regime change" is "an American invention," but, hey, in Saakashvili's case, it might not be such a bad idea.

They have a point. The Georgian strongman is a thug and an opportunist who does an excellent imitation of George W. Bush-times-10: whereas GWB merely implies his political opponents are traitors to the nation, Saakashvili comes right out and says it – then drags them into court on trumped up charges of high treason. GWB has presided over a regime that has legalized torture, but only for foreign "terrorists" (José Padilla excepted). Saakashvili, on the other hand, throws his domestic political opponents – whom he labels "terrorists" – in jail and tortures his own countrymen. Georgia's notorious prisons are chock full of political dissidents. GWB justifies his aggression by invoking "democracy" and the doctrine of "preemption," while Saakashvili doesn't bother with such theoretical niceties, denying his aggression against South Ossetia in defiance of the plain facts.

In short: if you love GWB, you'll love President Saakashvili. Therefore it's no surprise John McCain is portraying the Georgians as the good guys and demanding that Russian troops leave "sovereign Georgian territory" without preconditions or delay. After all, when your chief foreign policy adviser has up until very recently been a paid shill for the Georgian government, what else could we expect? As I've pointed out on a few occasions in this space, Mad John has been spoiling for a fight with the Russians – in the Caucasus and elsewhere – for years, going so far as to travel to Georgia to proclaim his sympathy for Saakashvili's cause.

What's really interesting, however, is how Barack Obama has taken up this same cause, albeit with less vehemence than the GOP nominee. As Politico.com reported:
"When violence broke out in the Caucasus on Friday morning, John McCain quickly issued a statement that was far more strident toward the Russians than that of President Bush, Barack Obama, and much of the West. But, as Russian warplanes pounded Georgian targets far beyond South Ossetia this weekend, Bush, Obama, and others have moved closer to McCain's initial position."While calling for mediation and international peacekeepers, Obama went with the War Party's line that Russia, not Georgia, is the aggressor, as the Times of London reports:
"Obama accused Russia of escalating the crisis 'through it's clear and continued violation of Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity.'"While his first statement on the outbreak of hostilities was more along the lines of "Can't we all get along?", the New York Times notes:
"Mr. Obama did harden his rhetoric later on Friday, shortly before getting on a plane for a vacation in Hawaii. His initial statement, an adviser said, was released before there were confirmed reports of the Russian invasion. In his later statement, Mr. Obama said, 'What is clear is that Russia has invaded Georgia's sovereign – has encroached on Georgia's sovereignty, and it is very important for us to resolve this issue as quickly as possible.'"This nonsense about Georgia's alleged "sovereignty" rides roughshod over the reality of the Ossetians' apparent determination to free themselves from Saakashvili's grip, and it's the buzzword that identifies a shill for the Georgians.

"I condemn Russia's aggressive actions," said Obama, "and reiterate my call for an immediate cease-fire." This cease-fire business is meant to feed directly into the Georgians' contention that they have offered to stop the conflict, even as they continue military operations in South Ossetia, which have already cost the lives of over a thousand of that country's inhabitants.

That didn't stop the McCainiacs from attacking Obama as a tool of the Kremlin. Sunday the news talk shows were abuzz with rumors of Democratic discontent over Obama's seeming inability to hit back at McCain's viciously negative campaign, yet it's much worse than that – it's not an unwillingness, but an inherent inability to do so. I hate to cite Andrew Sullivan favorably, but he was one of the first to note the convergence of the Obama camp and the McCain campaign on such central issues as Iran, and the process continues with this confluence of opinion on the Russian question. While the Obama people have dutifully pointed out that Randy Scheunemann, McCain's foreign policy guru, earned hundreds of thousands of dollars for his public relations firm as a paid lobbyist for the Georgians, their own candidate's position on the matter differs little from McCain's, except, as the New York Times notes, in terms of "style."

GWB recently assured Saakashvili that he would do his best to get the Georgians into NATO, but the Europeans – particularly the Germans – are balking, and this foray by the Georgian Napoleon into a direct conflict with the Russians seems to confirm their initial reluctance. The Euros are no dummies: they know Saakashvili's recklessness could plunge the entire region into an armed conflict that would resemble World War I in its utter stupidity.

I've written at length about the economic and political interests that stand to profit from a war in the Caucasus, and I won't repeat myself here except to note that the timing of this – with attacking Iran on the War Party's agenda – should alert us to the importance of what is happening. Russia has not only been opposed to Iran's victimization at the hands of the West, but Putin and his successor have taken up Tehran's cause, selling arms and technology to the Iranians and running diplomatic interference on their behalf. This is Washington's counterattack by proxy.

Please don't tell me Saakashvili just woke up one day and decided to attack Ossetia, and that the Americans weren't notified well in advance. Georgia depends on U.S. military and economic aid, and Saakashvili is a savvy operator: he is pulling a Lebanon, having learned from the Israeli example, and the Bush administration is more than glad to oblige him. Georgian tanks would never have rolled into South Ossetia without being given a green light by Washington.

Georgia has embarked on a very dangerous course, and it's important to realize it hasn't done so alone. Saakashvili has the implicit backing of Washington in his quest to re-conquer the "lost" provinces of Ossetia and Abkhazia (and don't forget Adjaria!) – or else what are 1,000 U.S. troops doing engaged in "joint military exercises" with the Georgian military, just as the crisis reaches a crescendo of violence? (The Brits, to their credit, have thought better of getting dragged into this one…)

It's too bad Obama is going along with the game plan, but then again, he was never good on the Russian question to begin with, so I can't say I'm disappointed. South Ossetia is not now a part of "sovereign Georgian territory," and it hasn't been for nearly two decades, no matter what McCain and Obama would have us believe. If they, along with GWB, are going to stand by Saakashvili's side as he mows down civilians and imposes martial law on a war-torn, dirt-poor, and much-abused people, then may they all be damned to hell – that is, if we can find a rung low enough for them.

It's funny – if you like your humor black – but when Slobodan Milosevic was supposedly doing to Kosovo what Saakashvili is now doing to South Ossetia, the U.S. launched bombing raids and "liberated" the Kosovars from what we were told was to be a gruesome fate. There are many reasons to doubt that this attempted "genocide" ever took place, but given that something very bad was going on in the former Yugoslavia, one has to ask: why don't the same standards apply to South Ossetia?

I'll tell you why: because the victims, this time, are Russians, Slavs who haven't achieved official victim status in the lexicon of Western "humanitarians."

Imagine if, say, Colombia invaded Panama, and rained bombs down on the many U.S. citizens currently living there. Would the U.S. act to ensure their safety? You betcha! So somebody please tell me why Russia hasn't the right to defend its own citizens, and even to deter and punish Georgian aggression.

The War Party has been running on some pretty low energy lately, and this revival of the Cold War will no doubt recharge its batteries. The warmongers need a new enemy, a fresh face in their rogues' gallery, to get the masses excited again, and Putin's Russia fits the bill. I've been warning of this possibility for what seems like years, and now the moment is upon us. What's interesting is how many left-liberal "peaceniks" are falling for the War Party's guff and lining up behind McCain, their hero Obama, and the neocons in the march to confrontation with the Kremlin.

~ Justin Raimondo

*****

As a companion piece listen to a conversation between Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service Professor Charles King and Salon blogger Glenn Greenwald.

[G778G9P0]

Hi TrueLie-

I don't necessarily believe everything in our media, but neither should you believe everything where you are. This leads to the queation, where are you located? Are you of Russian heritage?

I tend to think that anyone using military force anywhere leaves themselves open to reprisals. The op-ed piece by Marc Almond above seems to be a very germaine argument and the points can't really be refuted.