[echocassidyde]

In knowing "NEW YORK" has lots of links with my country, i find it quite strange you do not report the SNP (Scottish National Party) winning the Election in Scotland. We will soon be free from the shackles of the London dictatorship. This is a historic victory as the Labour Party have controlled our politics for the last 50 years and a huge step towards independence.

We have a forum, me and some friends have set up for those of us in Inverclyde that believe Scotland should govern its own affairs. We are an ancient country with a very long history.

Anyway, there must be a few ex-pats read on this forum or some with roots in Scotland, any from Inverclyde (Greenock, Gourock, Port Glasgow, Kilmalcom, Inverkip, Weymss Bay)

http://grianaig.proboards49.com/

Please come have a look or register.

Thanks, James.

alba gu brath.

[huedaanydrax]

Hi James,
Not an ex-pat Scot, but an Englishman from south of the border. I was overjoyed to hear that the SNP did so well, and like most English people (67% in a poll last week and actually higher than in Scotland, funnily enough) would like Scotland to have full independence. England deserves an English parliament and so does Scotland (which it already has of course, to a degree). We can hope that by the end of the decade the 'union' will be as dead as the Labour party (fingers crossed). Lets smash those shackles that bind us!!!

[Starichok]

Would you consider that this "London dictatorship" - whereby Scottish MSPs have primary legislative powers on transport, education and health - provides Scotland with any benefits?

[Gogogo]

Would you consider that this "London dictatorship" - whereby Scottish MSPs have primary legislative powers on transport, education and health - provides Scotland with any benefits?

What are you on about?

What benefits?

Are you refering to the GERS report hmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!! Another piece of rubbish to try and pull the shutters over the Scots population's eyes and hide the truth. Its been exposed for what it is, rubbish.

Are you one of the people with the real big chip on your shoulder who do not wish Scotland to have Independence?



Revealed: True oil wealth hidden to stop independence.


LABOUR ministers were warned in a secret Whitehall dossier 30 years ago of the powerful case for Scotland becoming independent with booming oil revenues, but the information was kept confidential by Harold Wilson's government to keep nationalism at bay.

The dossier, most of which was written by a leading government economist in 1974 and 1975, sets out how Scotland would have had one of the strongest currencies in Europe, attracting international capital into its banks in the same way as Switzerland.

It argued Scotland could quickly become one of Europe's strongest economies with "embarrassingly" large tax surpluses.

The balance-of-payments deficit that dogged Britain at the time would be "swamped" in Scotland by oil revenue and would "transform Scotland into a country with a substantial and chronic surplus".

The assessment demonstrates that the official Whitehall projections for oil tax revenue by 1980, six years after the document, were exceeded nearly 40 times over.

It shows officials advising ministers about how to "take the wind out of SNP sails", but they warned ministers to stop making any economic case against Scotland splitting from the UK, once oil revenues started flowing. The document refers to how the extent of the North Sea boom was being "disguised" by the Department of Trade and Industry.

The dossier details how a split of England and Scotland and a separate Scottish currency would force England into serious economic difficulties comparable to the 1930s slump, as it would have to import oil. It warned of an English backlash, and the possible use of force to ensure a share of the North Sea fields.

Released to the SNP under freedom of information legislation, it states that the scale of Scottish surpluses would be "embarrassing . . . and its currency would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian kroner". The SNP said it had cost Scotland £200bn.

The key part of the dossier was prepared when Edward Heath's Tory government was about to lose power in 1974. Much of it was written by Gavin McCrone, one of Scotland's leading economists, who was working for the then Scottish Office. The following year – with Labour concerned by the SNP surge in the two elections of 1974, using the slogan "it's Scotland's oil" – Dr McCrone's projections for independence were circulated to a tight circle of Labour ministers and officials throughout Whitehall. Willie Ross was Scottish secretary.

Dr McCrone argued that if Scotland were independent with its own currency, it could expect to see incomes rise from a figure then clearly below English levels, probably surpassing its southern neighbour, with sustained growth for at least a decade and an end to "stop-go" cycles.
However, industrial manufacturing, then the backbone of the Scottish economy, would find it hard to compete. The suggested answer was that Scotland should use its surpluses to lend heavily to England and its other European neighbours. With proper management, "this situation could last for a very long time into the future".

When the paper was written, the UK was one year into the European Economic Community, later to become the European Union, and Dr McCrone's analysis pointed out that an independent Scotland would have equal access to all its markets. Whereas Scotland without oil would be ignored by large EEC countries, oil would give it considerable bargaining clout.

Kenny MacAskill, SNP deputy Holyrood leader, claimed the dossier countered arguments used at the time that "Scotland's too wee, the oil would run out and that it's not our oil".

He said: "A whole array of myths and lies have been exposed. This means that the Scottish Office and British government . . . knew the North Sea wasn't going to be dry as a bone by the 1980s, and that it would have transformed Scotland economically, socially and politically."
He argued Scotland had missed out on £200bn of revenue as a result of the secrecy of the 1970s. With oil prices at record highs and Treasury revenues from it soaring, the Lothian MSP added: "The North Sea is half full and not half empty, and oil is back on the Scottish political agenda."

NO UNION

alba gu brath

[Loovikeillilen]

Hi James,
Not an ex-pat Scot, but an Englishman from south of the border. I was overjoyed to hear that the SNP did so well, and like most English people (67% in a poll last week and actually higher than in Scotland, funnily enough) would like Scotland to have full independence. England deserves an English parliament and so does Scotland (which it already has of course, to a degree). We can hope that by the end of the decade the 'union' will be as dead as the Labour party (fingers crossed). Lets smash those shackles that bind us!!!

Very true. Two nations with a lot to offer the world. The English deserve their own parliament as an independent nation (not the unfair majority it has at Westminster) and maybe it will re-ignite what England stands for and re-awaken its own identity. The actual percentage up in Scotland for independence when asked in simple terms "do you want Scots independence" is about 53-57% in favour with "A" percentage, not fussed either way and only around 29% in favour of the status quo. In a question of having a referendum on Scots independence the percentage in favour is over 80%.
The percentage in favour of Scots independence is always higher than the amount in percentage of votes for the SNP, party loyalty may play a part in that. It is believed around a 3rd of the Lib Dem voters favour Scots independence and even players within the Conservative Party (Caledonian Conservatives) and even within the Labour Party. Of course there is small parties like the Scottish Greens and SSP, Solidarity who also want independence.

A social union between our two independent countries is now what we should be looking to in the future, not a union that was forced on both without the consent of the people.

[mikeydesignzinc]

Heres to the future!!

[cyslespitocop]

What are you on about?

What benefits?

Are you refering to the GERS report hmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!! Another piece of rubbish to try and pull the shutters over the Scots population's eyes and hide the truth. Its been exposed for what it is, rubbish.

Are you one of the people with the real big chip on your shoulder who do not wish Scotland to have Independence?

Rather than ranting, shall we deal in facts? A survey by YouGov for the SNP found the majority of Scots are opposed to independence. In another recent YouGov poll, 69% of Scots were found to be in opposition to an independent Scotland. A January poll found that only 33% of Scots felt "the union is not worth maintaining".

By accident, rather than design, we have created something special in the UK. England and Scotland feed of each other's talent and are both culturally stronger as a result. I accept the Union was created as a vaguely imperial construct. But in our post-imperial country, we have built one of the most tolerant and liberal states in the world. I feel more British than I do English; I think of Scots like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle as part of my country's shared heritage as much as I would Oscar Wilde.

Scotland would automatically lose the huge influence it has as being part of the world's 5th richest country: gone the UN Security Council Membership, the head of the Commenwealth, the G8 - and indeed there is no certainity that England would stay in the prominent positions in holds in these institutions either. Look at the powers devolution has brought Scotland (which I believe should be extended) and with seven Scots in the British Cabinet, of which one is extremely likely to be the future PM, Scots are hardly maligned in the running of the UK.

Whilst I am no hawk, it is also worth remembering how weak the break-up would make England's Armed Forces. In pure pragmatic economics, independence would cost Scots £5000 in council tax on average. Scotland is a hugely successful country as part of Britain, with the best education in Europe and the highest rates of employment since records began.

If the Scottish people vote for independence, they should vote for it. But I think it would be the wrong decision for both England and Scotland for them to do so.

[flielagit]

Perhaps it should be modeled on the Canadian Federation, where Quebec has a certain amount of autonomy, but remains a Canadian province.

[RagonaCon]

Isn't that basically what exists now?

[QEoMi752]

Nah - Quebec has considerably more power. I'd agree that if people really are serious about independence then greater devolved power could be a good compromise position.

[traiffhetl]

Rather than ranting, shall we deal in facts? A survey by YouGov for the SNP found the majority of Scots are opposed to independence. In another recent YouGov poll, 69% of Scots were found to be in opposition to an independent Scotland. A January poll found that only 33% of Scots felt "the union is not worth maintaining".

http://www.independence1st.com/content/polls.shtml



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6185652.stm


Polls for you.


By accident, rather than design, we have created something special in the UK. England and Scotland feed of each other's talent and are both culturally stronger as a result. I accept the Union was created as a vaguely imperial construct. But in our post-imperial country, we have built one of the most tolerant and liberal states in the world. I feel more British than I do English; I think of Scots like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle as part of my country's shared heritage as much as I would Oscar Wilde.





Special to whom? Maybe to you not me. Culturally we are miles apart, for far too long has our children been spoon fed English/British history in schools that is now changing. The Union was formed on lies, bribes, deceit, threats etc etc etc it was in noway what the people wanted in Scotland. I am Scots never British it means nothing to me.



Scotland would automatically lose the huge influence it has as being part of the world's 5th richest country: gone the UN Security Council Membership, the head of the Commenwealth, the G8 - and indeed there is no certainty that England would stay in the prominent positions in holds in these institutions either. Look at the powers devolution has brought Scotland (which I believe should be extended) and with seven Scots in the British Cabinet, of which one is extremely likely to be the future PM, Scots are hardly maligned in the running of the UK.

Part of the 5th largest economy blah, blah, blah in which about 90% of the wealth is held within London. Why would we want to be on the security council or be part of the G8? How many countries that have gained their independence from the British Empire remain as part of the commonwealth, oh and why would we want to remain as part of it? I am a citizen of Scotland i do not believe in unelected heads of state. This, "and indeed there is no certainty that England would stay in the prominent positions it holds in these institutions either" i thought it was Britain not England that held these positions? Sorry i forgot you do not know the difference between British/English. Who are you to say what powers we should have or should not have, you worry about your own country. As for Gordon Brown i think the by-election in Dunfermline was a sign then in the Scots elections his home area was won by the SNP. No-one in Scotland cares a hoot for a sellout, authoritarian, control freak like Brown, hell bent on selling his own identity to appease the middle Englanders for personal gain.



Whilst I am no hawk, it is also worth remembering how weak the break-up would make England's Armed Forces. In pure pragmatic economics, independence would cost Scots £5000 in council tax on average. Scotland is a hugely successful country as part of Britain, with the best education in Europe and the highest rates of employment since records began.

England's Armed Forces? British/English one in the same?

Figures for this £5000 in council tax? Did you take them from the GERS report? I think you will find a much more complex and precise report claims we would be £7000 a head better off. Yes the highest record of employment that's classic, since when, Thatcher? We had no jobs under Thatcher now we have piss paying jobs under Blair and Co. How can Ireland, Norway, Iceland etc etc etc all be doing so much better than Scotland as small independent nations?




From what i read on here you are clueless to the facts on Scotland and the true feeling of its people. I really hate when a foreigner tells me how my country is thinking and doing all so well when they so obviously do not have a clue.

[Quality4Qty]

i find it quite strange you do not report the SNP (Scottish National Party) winning the Election in Scotland. We will soon be free from the shackles of the London dictatorship.

i dont know what polls you found but almost ever poll ive read or heard about says from only 25-33% of scots want independance.

I dont see any massive benefits from becoming independant that we wouldnt get from having complete control with each country having its own parliament but remaining united. That idiot alex salmond wants to leave NATO? what is that about?

Have you thought about how hard it will be for the enormous amount of scots business' which thrive with the ease of connection with england.

Oil wealth that is finite

One of the strongest currencies in the world? we already use the probably the strongest in the world.

James Watt your talking rubbish with no real facts and your making Scotland look like a nation of idiots.

What ive read on this thread is brainwashed extreme nationalism with no brain intake of alterantives.

This is my first and last post on this thread.

[Alina20100]

i dont know what polls you found but almost ever poll ive read or heard about says from only 25-33% of scots want independance.

I dont see any massive benefits from becoming independant that we wouldnt get from having complete control with each country having its own parliament but remaining united. That idiot alex salmond wants to leave NATO? what is that about?

Have you thought about how hard it will be for the enormous amount of scots business' which thrive with the ease of connection with england.

Oil wealth that is finite

One of the strongest currencies in the world? we already use the probably the strongest in the world.

James Watt your talking rubbish with no real facts and your making Scotland look like a nation of idiots.

What ive read on this thread is brainwashed extreme nationalism with no brain intake of alterantives.

This is my first and last post on this thread.

Yeah, my posts are fact. Where is your proof? You post a reply with no fact or proof to anything.

Extreme nationalism hahahahaha

Are you drunk?

[LeaderBiz]

Stop the insults.

[Sttim]

Stop the insults.

Who?

[Innoloinarp]

Don't know enough of the issue to speak intelligently about it. This is for the people of the UK to figure out. Peacefully. If Scotland wants to go it alone, follow the Czech model.

[stuntduood]

Who?

You.

[CoenceLomneedtrue]

Perhaps it should be modeled on the Canadian Federation, where Quebec has a certain amount of autonomy, but remains a Canadian province.

Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland make up the UK.

Scotland is a country within the UK at present (unfortunetley), it is not a province or region.

[cxddfrxc]

http://www.independence1st.com/content/polls.shtml



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6185652.stm


Polls for you.

Yes, and one of them is from a website called Independence First! I'm sure the ICM one is accurate, but it's only one poll which shows just 52% in favour, not the 67% you boasted of.

Special to whom? Maybe to you not me. Culturally we are miles apart, for far too long has our children been spoon fed English/British history in schools that is now changing. The Union was formed on lies, bribes, deceit, threats etc etc etc it was in noway what the people wanted in Scotland. I am Scots never British it means nothing to me.

There are cultural differences, although I often feel closer as a Londoner to someone living in Glasgow than someone from Surrey. There was no real move for independence until the 1970s and it has only gathered real force in the last couple of years. The vast majority of the Scottish people have liked the benefits being part of the UK has offered them. I'm no nationalist but I think Britain is quite a special country. As part of a democratic country, you have every right to differ, even if most other Scottish people would disagree.

Part of the 5th largest economy blah, blah, blah in which about 90% of the wealth is held within London. Why would we want to be on the security council or be part of the G8? How many countries that have gained their independence from the British Empire remain as part of the commonwealth, oh and why would we want to remain as part of it?

I thought you agreed to trade in facts, not just hyperbole? 20% of the UK's wealth is made in London and the south-east subsidises the rest of the country. Without London, investment into the UK would be considerably less than it is now (with the UK having more foreign investment than any country in Europe).

Why would you want to be part of the two most important international institutions in the world? Perhaps because it gives a relatively small country huge influence in the way the world is run? Scotland probably would stay in the Commenwealth (if it still could exist). I believe that the Commenwealth, (like the Union) despite the less than savoury reasons for its creation - a way for Britain to keep some power over the decayed institution of an empire - can play a genuine force for good in the world. It has enabled Britain to keep close relations and adopt some responsibility for many desperately poor African countries and has, in recent years, used its influence to try and isolate Mugabe - with Zimbabwe kicked out of the Commenwealth. It has also been economically benefitial, for Britian and the other Commenwealth countries, enabling us to develop close relations with India in particular and through the Commenwealth Games, we have developed cultural connections across the world.

I am a citizen of Scotland i do not believe in unelected heads of state. This, "and indeed there is no certainty that England would stay in the prominent positions it holds in these institutions either" i thought it was Britain not England that held these positions? Sorry i forgot you do not know the difference between British/English.

I'm no believer in the monarchy either. I can't see how that can be an argument for independence, it's a rather different quesiton. Yes, it was Britain that held these positions - I was referring to a post-break up situation where England (and Wales) was an independent country. Whilst Scotland would definitely lose membership to these institutions, I was explaining that there was no guarantee England would be allowed to stay in them.

Who are you to say what powers we should have or should not have, you worry about your own country. As for Gordon Brown i think the by-election in Dunfermline was a sign then in the Scots elections his home area was won by the SNP. No-one in Scotland cares a hoot for a sellout, authoritarian, control freak like Brown, hell bent on selling his own identity to appease the middle Englanders for personal gain.

Britain is my country. As I have already said, if Scotland were to vote for independence, that would be a decision, however stupid, that should be respected. Labour probably got more votes than the SNP and the elections were seen as a protest against Blair rather than a vote for independence - I don't really see how you can say that no-one cares about Brown, especially when polls showed his imput boosted Labour up by nearly 10 points.

England's Armed Forces? British/English one in the same?

Again, I'm speaking about a post-break up scenario. Don't be so quick to bite.

Figures for this £5000 in council tax? Did you take them from the GERS report? I think you will find a much more complex and precise report claims we would be £7000 a head better off. Yes the highest record of employment that's classic, since when, Thatcher? We had no jobs under Thatcher now we have piss paying jobs under Blair and Co. How can Ireland, Norway, Iceland etc etc etc all be doing so much better than Scotland as small independent nations?

My figures were from the Times and Guardian newspapers. Perhaps they took them from the GERS report, I don't know. Could you at least mention the name of this "much more complex and precise report"? Blair's government has brought the lowest rates of unemployment since the mid-1970s. It's ridiculous to suggest that the Labour government has been anything but good for the economy and after introducing the minimum wage in 1998, pay is higher than ever. I'd be very interested to see your information showing that the Iceland is "doing so much better" than Scotland. Norway has better public services because it's a Scandinavian social democracy - independence won't necessarily mean that. As the Balkans and Slovakia show, independence isn't always a ticket to economic prosperity.

[Foriaelalse]

Stop the insults.

Care to explain where the insults are?