[SzefciuCba]

This can not be allowed to pass. This will give the government the power to lock American civilians up without a trial and subvert the 4th amendment. This can also be used to subvert all other amendments under the bill of rights if someone decides you speaking against the government is a terrorist act as they did when Obama decided to assassinate 2 American citizens, one being a 16 y/o boy because of what they supposedly said.

There have also been many times when a government official has said owning too many guns can make you a terrorist. They have even said the TEA party is a group of terrorist, and that was from VP Biden. Spread this far a wide you we might lose our rights under the guise of "good intentions".

[Flikemommoilt]

I was just going to post this story, when I noticed that you already did. Good catch!

I can't wait for all the forum members who insisted Al Awaki's assassination, indefinite detainment, and torture could "never" happen on US soil - what excuse will they come up with now?

[SergeyMaikov]

Wait a minute...wait just one friggin' minute. You two are in agreement about something?!?





HEAD TO THE HILLS, IT'S THE END TIMES!!!

[esconsise]

Well, the artilce you posted is a little misleading..imagine that. I completly agree with whatSenator Graham said on the house floor:

"We're fighting a war, not a crime," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, an Air Force Reserves military lawyer and key author of the nation's detainee treatment law. "Here's what we decided to do as a body today. America is part of the battlefield. We firmly believe the war is coming back home, so we're no longer going to have an absurd result that if we capture you overseas where you're planning attack on the United States, we can blow you up or put you in a military prison indefinitely. But if you make it to America, all of a sudden you get Miranda rights and you go to federal court. That's an absurd result; never been known in war before."

We are talking about terrorist...this is a war against the USA. Even if you choose to act like it isn't a war...it is.

[18holesin]

Well, the artilce you posted is a little misleading..imagine that. I completly agree with whatSenator Graham said on the house floor:

"We're fighting a war, not a crime," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, an Air Force Reserves military lawyer and key author of the nation's detainee treatment law. "Here's what we decided to do as a body today. America is part of the battlefield. We firmly believe the war is coming back home, so we're no longer going to have an absurd result that if we capture you overseas where you're planning attack on the United States, we can blow you up or put you in a military prison indefinitely. But if you make it to America, all of a sudden you get Miranda rights and you go to federal court. That's an absurd result; never been known in war before."

We are talking about terrorist...this is a war against the USA. Even if you choose to act like it isn't a war...it is.

It is a war against an "idea", not a specific person or country. What happens when Joe Biden keeps calling the TEA partiers "terrorists" and then some actually believe it? How about being assassinated for your speech, and no actions? If this is truely a war, why hasn't congress declared it a war then? How many years and many dollars are we going to spend on this "war on terror"? Is their minds, we are being the terrorist. If just calling it a "war" means we can suspend habius corpis, then what about the "war on drugs" or the "war on poverty". Again, your rights and freedoms are going to be gone, you are going to give them up in the name of security and you will have neither security or freedom. The road to ruin is laid with the bricks of good intentions.

[EvaQWmrm]

Well, the artilce you posted is a little misleading..imagine that. I completly agree with whatSenator Graham said on the house floor:

"We're fighting a war, not a crime," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, an Air Force Reserves military lawyer and key author of the nation's detainee treatment law. "Here's what we decided to do as a body today. America is part of the battlefield. We firmly believe the war is coming back home, so we're no longer going to have an absurd result that if we capture you overseas where you're planning attack on the United States, we can blow you up or put you in a military prison indefinitely. But if you make it to America, all of a sudden you get Miranda rights and you go to federal court. That's an absurd result; never been known in war before."

We are talking about terrorist...this is a war against the USA. Even if you choose to act like it isn't a war...it is.

I don't buy WJ's Tea Party conspiracy theory - but he is absolutely right that this is a serious threat to our civil liberties.

So E8 - you're telling me all it takes for all of your constitutional rights to be completely stripped away is for the government to declare you a "terrorist"? And you're happy about that?

Article 3 of the United States Consitution makes it extremely difficult for the government to convict someone of treason - declaring someone a "terrorist suspect" and detaining him indefinitely or quitely executing him in a torture camp is a perfect loophole.

Unfortunately, whether or not the bill passes really doesn't matter. Our government already operates torture camps in multiple countries around the world, kills indiscriminately, and alreadly has the power to detain you indefinitely without bringing you to trial (Is Manning still has not been convicted or even tried for anything)

[Marc Spilkintin]

Joe,
My rights are not being taken away. I am not a terrorist, a criminal or anything of the sort. My rights will be as they always have been. As for those who choose to wage a non-war (for you folks that do not seem to believe people want to kill Americans) they have no US Constitutional rights if they are not Americans! If you are an American and you have sworn loyalty to Al Qaeda or whomever then you have relinquished your citizenship/rights.

[dHXaE2h9]

Joe,
My rights are not being taken away. I am not a terrorist, a criminal or anything of the sort. My rights will be as they always have been. As for those who choose to wage a non-war (for you folks that do not seem to believe people want to kill Americans) they have no US Constitutional rights if they are not Americans! If you are an American and you have sworn loyalty to Al Qaeda or whomever then you have relinquished your citizenship/rights.

Al Qaeda is a group of people with a certain distain for the US. Not a country that you have to switch citizenships to.

You are not a terrorist now, but what happens if the government and those in charge declare you have "too many guns"? Or if you say too many mean things about those in power? Ooops, you have just now been labeled a terrorist. Anwar committed no acts of terrorism, he only spoke to people that commited acts. So he was following his first amendment right to free speech, look where that got him.

You can throw your support to an anti-establishment group, like the TEA party (when it started) and if those in power fear losing their seat due to that group, all they have to do is declare that group a terrorising group and now they have lost all their rights. The muslim brotherhood were not allowed to run for office in Egypt because of their group, what makes you think this "law" can't be used in the same way against the TEA party or other group of that nature? Did you see the unseating of many incumbants in 2010 because of the TEA party? McCain, the co-sposor of the bill, hates and fears the TEA party.

Don't be fooled that you are safe just cause you don't have a criminal record...yet.

[Prealiitellg]

BTW, it passed the senate 61-39 yesterday. Now on to the house. Here is the list of who voted for it. 42 (R), 19 (D).

Ayotte (R-NH)
Barrasso (R-WY)
Blunt (R-MO)
Boozman (R-AR)
Brown (R-MA)
Burr (R-NC)
Casey (D-PA)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coats (R-IN)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Collins (R-ME)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corker (R-TN)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
Enzi (R-WY)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Hagan (D-NC)
Hatch (R-UT)
Heller (R-NV)
Hoeven (R-ND)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Johanns (R-NE)
Johnson (R-WI)
Kohl (D-WI)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lee (R-UT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (ID-CT)
Lugar (R-IN)
Manchin (D-WV)
McCain (R-AZ)
McCaskill (D-MO)
McConnell (R-KY)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Moran (R-KS)
Nelson (D-NE)
Portman (R-OH)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Risch (R-ID)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rubio (R-FL)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shaheen (D-NH)
Shelby (R-AL)
Snowe (R-ME)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Thune (R-SD)
Toomey (R-PA)
Vitter (R-LA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wicker (R-MS)

[Abebpabeniemo]

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.-James Madison

[Gintovtosik]

Well, the artilce you posted is a little misleading..imagine that. I completly agree with whatSenator Graham said on the house floor:

"We're fighting a war, not a crime," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, an Air Force Reserves military lawyer and key author of the nation's detainee treatment law. "Here's what we decided to do as a body today. America is part of the battlefield. We firmly believe the war is coming back home, so we're no longer going to have an absurd result that if we capture you overseas where you're planning attack on the United States, we can blow you up or put you in a military prison indefinitely. But if you make it to America, all of a sudden you get Miranda rights and you go to federal court. That's an absurd result; never been known in war before."

We are talking about terrorist...this is a war against the USA. Even if you choose to act like it isn't a war...it is.

That's taking it a little far. I agree somewhat with WJ - we are fighting an ideology NOT a country or one person. We're fighting against a group that has an extreme ideology on how they want the world to be. Although I agree with the decision to kill Awlaki and his little buddy (I'm not going into that debate again though) I think if someone is an American citizen and caught in the US attempting these things they go to trial. BUT I think if you're convicted of terrorism, you should lose your citizenship. It's that simple - if you hate America so much you want to kill innocent people, why should you be afforded the rights of this country? I don't think that someone who is not a citizen who comes here just to take advantage of the rights we afford even non-citizens should get those rights.

That is one of our big problems. Extremists know about our systems and our rights and they take advantage of that. We need to be like other countries sometimes and not give a shit what the world thinks and protect ourselves.

But I think you're taking too much of a 'hawkish' stance on this and I think Graham is going a bit overboard. I think it's a slippery slope if you start saying that the US is a "battlefield." That is when rights start to slip away.

[clubcughSheet]

I don't buy WJ's Tea Party conspiracy theory - but he is absolutely right that this is a serious threat to our civil liberties.

So E8 - you're telling me all it takes for all of your constitutional rights to be completely stripped away is for the government to declare you a "terrorist"? And you're happy about that?

Article 3 of the United States Consitution makes it extremely difficult for the government to convict someone of treason - declaring someone a "terrorist suspect" and detaining him indefinitely or quitely executing him in a torture camp is a perfect loophole.

Unfortunately, whether or not the bill passes really doesn't matter. Our government already operates torture camps in multiple countries around the world, kills indiscriminately, and alreadly has the power to detain you indefinitely without bringing you to trial (Is Manning still has not been convicted or even tried for anything)

I believe Manning has been charged with offenses but they're trying to figure out where to hold it. I hope that jackass spends the rest of his life in prison honestly.

I think if someone is a US citizen and they are found guilty of terrorism, espionage, etc, take away their citizenship and their rights. They obviously don't care.

[jisee]

Joe,
My rights are not being taken away. I am not a terrorist, a criminal or anything of the sort. My rights will be as they always have been. As for those who choose to wage a non-war (for you folks that do not seem to believe people want to kill Americans) they have no US Constitutional rights if they are not Americans! If you are an American and you have sworn loyalty to Al Qaeda or whomever then you have relinquished your citizenship/rights.

There are always going to be people who want to kill Americans or destroy America. It's been like that forever and until we fall, it will be that way. To a point I'll agree with WJ that you're not a terrorist today. As I stated it's a slippery slope and lines will get blurred.

But Sooner you are wrong - even if you're a non-citizen you still have rights. The Constitution - as far as I know - does not have wording that says it only applies to the citizens of the US. I agree that if you commit a terrorist act - a blatant no shit terrorist attack - you should get your citizenship taken away BUT then politics might come in to play and too many times people in power abuse that power. It could turn into a giant clusterfuck.

[liontutuxx]

This can not be allowed to pass. This will give the government the power to lock American civilians up without a trial and subvert the 4th amendment. This can also be used to subvert all other amendments under the bill of rights if someone decides you speaking against the government is a terrorist act as they did when Obama decided to assassinate 2 American citizens, one being a 16 y/o boy because of what they supposedly said.

There have also been many times when a government official has said owning too many guns can make you a terrorist. They have even said the TEA party is a group of terrorist, and that was from VP Biden. Spread this far a wide you we might lose our rights under the guise of "good intentions".

This is where it starts to get iffy:

"An individual, no matter who they are, if they pose a threat to the security of the United States of America, should not be allowed to continue that threat," said McCain. " We need to take every stop necessary to prevent that from happening, that’s for the safety and security of the men and women who are out there risking their lives ... in our armed services.”

Whose definition of a "threat" will be used? McCain's? Some other Congress member? I think we're stepping into murky waters with this one...

[freeprescriptionplanrrx]

This type of power and authority seems fine as long as we turn it over to someone whom we believe to be relatively trustworthy. What happens when it is given to someone we don't? I'm surprised there's even that level of trust for politicians as it is. We can trust them with our lives, but everything else is hardly worthy even of consideration. Seem backwards to anyone else?

[meencegic]

Joe,
My rights are not being taken away. I am not a terrorist, a criminal or anything of the sort. My rights will be as they always have been. As for those who choose to wage a non-war (for you folks that do not seem to believe people want to kill Americans) they have no US Constitutional rights if they are not Americans! If you are an American and you have sworn loyalty to Al Qaeda or whomever then you have relinquished your citizenship/rights.

-"Non-war". Interesting. So you yourself admit that the government has the right to kill you even if you have not comitted a direct act of terror?

-Nowhere in the Constitution does it say those rights only apply to American citizens. Stop repeating this fallacy. Its blatantly wrong.

-Even if the Constitution DID only apply to citizens, you STILL don't lose those rights if the government accuses you of a crime. Once again, stop repeating this fallacy, it defies all logic.

-As WJ already pointed out, AQ is not a nation. There is no such thing as an AQ citizen. And even if there was a "Nation of AQ", you still wouldn't lose your American citizenship by being a part of it. Of course you would probably be barred from the military, or a security clearance - but you wouldn't lose your Constitutional rights. To suggest that is just dumb.

-Watch your step. Be real respectful if you ever meet a member of the FBI or law enforcement. Be sure to address him as "sir". Standing at parade rest wouldn't hurt either.

[forexsoft]

I believe Manning has been charged with offenses but they're trying to figure out where to hold it. I hope that jackass spends the rest of his life in prison honestly.

I think if someone is a US citizen and they are found guilty of terrorism, espionage, etc, take away their citizenship and their rights. They obviously don't care.

Whether or not you like him or consider him a "jackass" is irrelevant. He still has the right to a prompt trial. Which he hasn't gotten.

[xanaxist]

That's taking it a little far. I agree somewhat with WJ - we are fighting an ideology NOT a country or one person. We're fighting against a group that has an extreme ideology on how they want the world to be.

Nothing is specified that this group is the only people that can be labeled a "terrorist". This can be applied to anyone, even "lonewolves".

Although I agree with the decision to kill Awlaki and his little buddy (I'm not going into that debate again though) I think if someone is an American citizen and caught in the US attempting these things they go to trial. BUT I think if you're convicted of terrorism, you should lose your citizenship. I am sure you recognize this law doesn't require any trial or conviction before you are labeled a terrorist or lose your constitutional rights to a fair trial.

It's that simple - if you hate America so much you want to kill innocent people, why should you be afforded the rights of this country? When do you make the distiction between a mass murderer and a terrorist? Was the DC sniper a terrorist? We are afforded the right under the constitution to hate the government so much that we take up arms and expell tyrantical leaders. I am sure that if that ever happened, those taking up arms would be considered criminals with or without a congressional act anyways, but I am just saying. You get a worrisome congressman that is about to lose his seat to a TEA party, "anti-status quo", and then they decide to label that person a terrorist to save their seat. Then they get an insurection from their constituants and now what?

I don't think that someone who is not a citizen who comes here just to take advantage of the rights we afford even non-citizens should get those rights. I agree.

That is one of our big problems. Extremists know about our systems and our rights and they take advantage of that. We need to be like other countries sometimes and not give a shit what the world thinks and protect ourselves. Yep, and the first step to protecting ourselves, is to stop "protecting" other countries around the world, especially when their populace doesn't want us there.

[Allorneadesee]

There are always going to be people who want to kill Americans or destroy America. It's been like that forever and until we fall, it will be that way. To a point I'll agree with WJ that you're not a terrorist today. As I stated it's a slippery slope and lines will get blurred.

But Sooner you are wrong - even if you're a non-citizen you still have rights. The Constitution - as far as I know - does not have wording that says it only applies to the citizens of the US. I agree that if you commit a terrorist act - a blatant no shit terrorist attack - you should get your citizenship taken away BUT then politics might come in to play and too many times people in power abuse that power. It could turn into a giant clusterfuck.

Will it always be a "no shit terrorist attack"? Anwar ever committed an attack? There is already precidence that says you need not commit an action to be labeled a terrorist.

[PRengin]

Without habeas corpus, nothing else in the Constitution means jack and shit.

And NO ONE here is alarmed about allowing the military to pick up Americans off the street and murder them?!